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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy-help me explain to my daughter why this is exploiting women

397 replies

happydappy2 · 04/01/2024 20:23

Teen daughter thinks surrogacy is fine, as an opportunity for the woman to earn money.
I've explained that only impoverished women do it, not wealthy ones.
It's not fair on the child to be removed from it's natural Mother/protector.
It will be a high risk pregnancy for the surrogate.
Ultimately benefits mens, not women or children.
There have been cases of paedophiles commissioning surrogates
She just doesn't get it though-what else can I ask her to think about to get her to understand how exploitative this is?
I asked her, would it be ok for me to buy a 10 yr old child? No of course not, so why is it ok for wealthy people to buy babies?

She's nearly 18, I really need to help her critical thinking on this....thanks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 15:17

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:04

The chance of maternal death in childbirth is 10 per 100,000 pregnacies in the UK, which disproportionately affects overweight, obese, smoking, poor older and ethnic minority people.

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

For comparison, donating a liver lobe is 1 in 200 - about 50 times higher chance of death (I mean that's really, really high - much worse than I expected). The chance of long term complications is 5%,

Kidney donation is four times more likely than pregnancy to cause death, with a lower risk of long term effects.

So, if it's the danger to the mother which is the main reason for stopping surrogacy, we should start by banning living organ donation.

I mean, with organ donation you are saving a life, so the stakes are very different.

Edited

So, those maternal death statistics are for surrogate pregnancies?

Or are you just trying to shame women from discussing surrogacy using incorrect comparisons?

stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk · 11/01/2024 15:18

Thanks @DadJoke For the record I am also 100% opposed to the commercial trafficking and purchase of human organs such as kidneys.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 15:53

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:04

The chance of maternal death in childbirth is 10 per 100,000 pregnacies in the UK, which disproportionately affects overweight, obese, smoking, poor older and ethnic minority people.

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

For comparison, donating a liver lobe is 1 in 200 - about 50 times higher chance of death (I mean that's really, really high - much worse than I expected). The chance of long term complications is 5%,

Kidney donation is four times more likely than pregnancy to cause death, with a lower risk of long term effects.

So, if it's the danger to the mother which is the main reason for stopping surrogacy, we should start by banning living organ donation.

I mean, with organ donation you are saving a life, so the stakes are very different.

Edited

You've literally argued against, and answered, your post with your last sentence

They are not comparable situations so why compare them

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:56

@Helleofabore these are for all pregnancies. I don't have data on surrogate pregnancies, because I can't find any, but it's not likely to be significantly different than the average in England. The data shows that pregnancy is risky. Organ donation is more risky, but one saves someone's life, the other doesn't. If it's soley risk which is the determinant, then we should ban organ donation, but it's not. Of course I am not trying to "shame women from discussing surrogacy." If anything I am simply providing data to answer the OP's question.

@stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk I am also 100% against any form of commercialisation or trafficking of organ donation and surrogacy.

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat I literally said they weren't the same. Please reread what I said.

RedToothBrush · 11/01/2024 15:58

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:04

The chance of maternal death in childbirth is 10 per 100,000 pregnacies in the UK, which disproportionately affects overweight, obese, smoking, poor older and ethnic minority people.

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

For comparison, donating a liver lobe is 1 in 200 - about 50 times higher chance of death (I mean that's really, really high - much worse than I expected). The chance of long term complications is 5%,

Kidney donation is four times more likely than pregnancy to cause death, with a lower risk of long term effects.

So, if it's the danger to the mother which is the main reason for stopping surrogacy, we should start by banning living organ donation.

I mean, with organ donation you are saving a life, so the stakes are very different.

Edited

Cos a liver is equivalent to a woman AND a baby combined and obviously takes into consideration mental health risks as well as physical ones? Right?

I think that type of equivalency says a lot about the people saying it. Especially when they are male.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 16:00

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:56

@Helleofabore these are for all pregnancies. I don't have data on surrogate pregnancies, because I can't find any, but it's not likely to be significantly different than the average in England. The data shows that pregnancy is risky. Organ donation is more risky, but one saves someone's life, the other doesn't. If it's soley risk which is the determinant, then we should ban organ donation, but it's not. Of course I am not trying to "shame women from discussing surrogacy." If anything I am simply providing data to answer the OP's question.

@stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk I am also 100% against any form of commercialisation or trafficking of organ donation and surrogacy.

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat I literally said they weren't the same. Please reread what I said.

Edited

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat I literally said they weren't the same. Please reread what I said

I know, that was the point of my post

If they aren't the same why compare them?

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 16:01

RedToothBrush · 11/01/2024 15:58

Cos a liver is equivalent to a woman AND a baby combined and obviously takes into consideration mental health risks as well as physical ones? Right?

I think that type of equivalency says a lot about the people saying it. Especially when they are male.

Well exactly, a woman and a baby are definitely the equivalent of a lobe of liver 🙄

StephanieSuperpowers · 11/01/2024 16:02

it's not likely to be significantly different than the average in England

I think I've read that because the preferred method is to use the eggs from another woman and the possibility of implanting multiple embryos, it can very much be the case that surrogate pregnancy is more dangerous.

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 16:10

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 15:56

@Helleofabore these are for all pregnancies. I don't have data on surrogate pregnancies, because I can't find any, but it's not likely to be significantly different than the average in England. The data shows that pregnancy is risky. Organ donation is more risky, but one saves someone's life, the other doesn't. If it's soley risk which is the determinant, then we should ban organ donation, but it's not. Of course I am not trying to "shame women from discussing surrogacy." If anything I am simply providing data to answer the OP's question.

@stillplentyofjunkinthetrunk I am also 100% against any form of commercialisation or trafficking of organ donation and surrogacy.

@JustanotherMNSlapperTwat I literally said they weren't the same. Please reread what I said.

Edited

So, you have put up data for ALL pregnancies? So, why don't you then at least seek out the data for the statistics for high risk pregnancies?

Again, you are providing statistics for pregnancy deaths against organ donation.

They are not comparative. Why didn't you use the comparison of how many men die from donating sperm? You logically cannot compare low risk pregnancy deaths with organ donation death. Yes, all pregnancies are risky. How about you compare all known on going health issues from any pregnancy then? Because I know very few women without ongoing issues arising from pregnancy. Why only focus on death?

Because your intention here was most definitely to shame women having a discussion.

But yes. Organ donation saves lives. NO surrogacy should be life saving. And if it is, it is most fucking definitely unethical. But either way, NO surrogacy should be considered as a comparison to organ donation.

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 16:11

@RedToothBrush no it, obviously isn't the same, and I didn't say it was.

I acknowledge that the morbidity data for pregnancy I used, while taking into account mental health morbidities, does not take into account additional mental health issues specific for surrogacy.

This is what I can find - but it's a very small sample size.

"This study enabled, for the first time, a prospective longitudinal examination of surrogates' well-being 10 years following the birth of the surrogate child. Contrary to the difficulties that had been expected for surrogates in the long-term, the majority of surrogates in this sample did not experience psychological problems in the decade following the birth of the surrogacy child. Indeed, these findings suggest that overall, surrogates report positive well-being as demonstrated by their high self-esteem, their lack of signs of depression and their good or above average relationship quality with their husbands/partners."

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/30/2/373/728908

Other studies suggest positive outcomes in Western countries, with worse outcomes in India, for example. (All limited in size, though)

"Limited research has been performed on the psychological outcomes of surrogates. The data that has been collected in Western medical systems overwhelmingly shows that surrogate mothers and their families
have good psychological outcomes and feel positively about the experience. "

surrogacy_report.pdf (cornell.edu)

Issue Cover

Surrogate mothers 10 years on: a longitudinal study of psychological well-being and relationships with the parents and child

AbstractSTUDY QUESTION. How do the psychological health and experiences of surrogate mothers change from 1 year to 10 years following the birth of the surrogacy

https://academic.oup.com/humrep/article/30/2/373/728908

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 16:11

RedToothBrush · 11/01/2024 15:58

Cos a liver is equivalent to a woman AND a baby combined and obviously takes into consideration mental health risks as well as physical ones? Right?

I think that type of equivalency says a lot about the people saying it. Especially when they are male.

yep.

And apparently all the other ongoing health issues that arise from pregnancies are to be dismissed because they are not death.

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 16:26

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 16:11

yep.

And apparently all the other ongoing health issues that arise from pregnancies are to be dismissed because they are not death.

Well sure because men are more likely to leave women if the woman develops a health condition

So when discussing the ethics of surrogacy they don't need to be as concerned about the long term health impacts on women when they already used to swapping them out when they go faulty

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 16:29

@Helleofabore "They are not comparative. Why didn't you use the comparison of how many men die from donating sperm? You logically cannot compare low risk pregnancy deaths with organ donation death. Yes, all pregnancies are risky. How about you compare all known on going health issues from any pregnancy then? Because I know very few women without ongoing issues arising from pregnancy. Why only focus on death?"

The physical and mental risk of pregnancy is a strong argument against surrogacy, and so I did include long-term morbidity statistics - 8% - for pregnancy, so I didn't focus only on death.

Which raises the question - we allow people to consent to high risk procedures to save other peoples' lives, should we allow people to take a similar but lower level of risk in order to be a voluntary surrogate, or should we forbid it?

Because your intention here was most definitely to shame women having a discussion.

Aside from you having absolutely no idea what my intentions are at all, you also have no idea what my position on organ donation and surrogacy are. The OP asked for information to inform a discussion on surrogacy, which I have provided.

@StephanieSuperpowers I'm not able to find reliable data on mortality and morbidity. The cornell.edu report above suggests the multigestational surrogacy is much more risky, which is why it has mainly been banned - otherwise "Overall, it appears that there is no conclusive evidence that there is a higher risk to gestational carrier pregnancies." In other words, still risky.

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 16:32

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 16:11

yep.

And apparently all the other ongoing health issues that arise from pregnancies are to be dismissed because they are not death.

Apart from the fact I literally stated what the risk of ongoing helath issues were for pregnancy. Here is me saying it:

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 11/01/2024 16:53

extract from JANUARY 29, 2020 BY NORDIC MODEL NOW

I was an altruistic surrogate and am now against ALL surrogacy

I was an altruistic surrogate for some friends, carrying and giving birth to twins. It was an incredibly traumatic experience, and afterwards I had to receive treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). I never talk to anyone about my experience as I still find it utterly devastating.

We only ever hear about the positive stories in the media, pushed by the organisations that promote surrogacy. It is important that people hear about how surrogacy can go seriously wrong, and the life-long impacts of that on the women who offer their bodies to be used by others.

I became a surrogate for some friends. I naively believed that because the births of my own children had gone well, it would also be simple for a surrogacy pregnancy. I thought I’d done a lot of research and I did talk to some other surrogates before embarking on it.

However, I agreed to go ahead before I knew enough about the extremely intrusive and harmful medical procedures I would need to go through. I naively thought I would simply have the embryos implanted in line with my own menstrual cycle. I did not realise my own natural cycle would have to be chemically halted, and the amount of harmful and synthetic hormones I would have to take to create an artificial cycle that was in line with the egg donor’s.

Once I discovered the amount of hormones I would have to take, I felt like I could not back out and devastate my friends. I went ahead against my own better judgement and my internal instincts which were warning me – because I did not want to cause offence or upset my friends.

I was also persuaded to have two embryos implanted to increase the chance of successful implantation. I now realise I did not fully understand the increased risks for myself of carrying and birthing twins.

Looking back, I see that I subjugated my own health and safety to prioritise the desires of the intended parents. I also realise that my own psychological state at the time of making these decisions meant that I had a martyr complex and that I was too self-sacrificing. I completely deprioritised myself. This was due to a lack of self-esteem and assertiveness, and seeing my value lying only in how useful I was to others. I had an over-developed sense of ‘service.’

This is common in women, as female socialisation means that women and girls are encouraged and trained to put themselves second, and to prioritise other people, and to be ‘kind.’ This female socialisation and psychology needs to be investigated, researched and considered in the context of altruistic surrogates.

Throughout the pregnancy I experienced unexpected jealousy and anger from the intended mother who was upset that I could fall pregnant so easily. Both parents put pressure on me about how and where I would give birth. I had to be very assertive to make it clear that it was my body, and that the physiological process of birth works best when the mother feels completely safe and births in the way she is most comfortable with. I had to be very clear that the decision making lay with me alone.

I felt that they believed that to some extent they ‘owned’ me and my uterus, and that they ‘deserved’ to direct the birth because they saw the babies as ‘theirs.’

The birth ended up being extremely traumatic with one baby being admitted to the neonatal intensive care unit (NICU), and me suffering second degree tears.

Then a horrific two year nightmare began as the midwives moved quickly to blame me and make false claims that I prevented them from assisting in the birth. This blaming is a familiar experience to women who suffer traumatic births, in an NHS culture that will do everything it can to avoid liability in medical negligence claims. There were four separate investigations by the independent midwifery regulatory body who found all the midwives guilty of failure to intervene in an emergency, and failure to monitor foetal health during the birth. The trauma of the birth was compounded by the trauma of being blamed and then enduring multiple investigations over two years which ultimately exonerated me. Rather than moving on with my life after surrogacy, I was having to relive the trauma over and over during the investigations.

After the birth I was more or less completely abandoned by the intended parents, left to fend off the lies and victim-blaming by the midwives, left to endure the multiple investigations alone. The intended parents did not support me, nor did they defend me during the multiple investigations.

Most hurtfully I was not invited to the twin’s christening. I was used for my uterus, and then discarded when I was no longer needed. It was the most degrading and horrific experience. My mental health collapsed, and two years after the traumatic birth I was diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and received treatment.

I never talk about what happened to anyone, not even to close relatives, as I do not want to relive what happened to me. It wasn’t until the Law Commissioners’ consultation that I ever spoke about this.

I am left with birth injuries, incontinence, and with diastasic recti (separation of the abdominal muscles) which all cause me daily problems. I do not know what the long term health impacts will be of taking large amounts of synthetic hormones, nor the potential increased risk of breast cancer as I did not breastfeed the babies.

I am now completely against ALL surrogacy, both commercial (which is completely immoral in my view) and altruistic unpaid surrogacy. The potential for abuse is too great. Women should not be encouraged to endanger their emotional and physical health and safety for other people’s ‘need’ to have babies. Women matter. Women should not be encouraged to put ourselves second, and to risk our lives for other people.

I recommend that ALL surrogacy should be made unlawful as other countries have done. The law should not be changed to make it easier to exploit women, both women who are vulnerable through poverty and those who are simply well-meaning and ill-informed like me.

I also often think of the poor, young female student in Eastern Europe who had to endure egg harvesting and the life-long consequences of that, to pay for her studies. There is very little that is ‘ethical’ about surrogacy.

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 17:11

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 16:29

@Helleofabore "They are not comparative. Why didn't you use the comparison of how many men die from donating sperm? You logically cannot compare low risk pregnancy deaths with organ donation death. Yes, all pregnancies are risky. How about you compare all known on going health issues from any pregnancy then? Because I know very few women without ongoing issues arising from pregnancy. Why only focus on death?"

The physical and mental risk of pregnancy is a strong argument against surrogacy, and so I did include long-term morbidity statistics - 8% - for pregnancy, so I didn't focus only on death.

Which raises the question - we allow people to consent to high risk procedures to save other peoples' lives, should we allow people to take a similar but lower level of risk in order to be a voluntary surrogate, or should we forbid it?

Because your intention here was most definitely to shame women having a discussion.

Aside from you having absolutely no idea what my intentions are at all, you also have no idea what my position on organ donation and surrogacy are. The OP asked for information to inform a discussion on surrogacy, which I have provided.

@StephanieSuperpowers I'm not able to find reliable data on mortality and morbidity. The cornell.edu report above suggests the multigestational surrogacy is much more risky, which is why it has mainly been banned - otherwise "Overall, it appears that there is no conclusive evidence that there is a higher risk to gestational carrier pregnancies." In other words, still risky.

And your posts have not separated out high risk pregnancies of women carrying an unrelated foetus.

Again, you can try to declare that you are comparing like for like, but you are not.

You are providing generalised pregnancy information to support a false equivalence.

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 17:12

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 16:32

Apart from the fact I literally stated what the risk of ongoing helath issues were for pregnancy. Here is me saying it:

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

Still generalised pregnancy statistics which you then use to downplay the risks.

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 17:26

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 17:12

Still generalised pregnancy statistics which you then use to downplay the risks.

Clearly you have access to much better data and studies on this than I do - rather than attacking me, why not provide them to help the OP?

FannyCann · 11/01/2024 17:30

It's hard to find morbidity data on England, but 8% of pregancies results in long term complications, again more likely to be associated with similar co-factors.

It is hard to find morbidity data & I've no idea where that 8% figure came from.

I would think that is quite low and the likely figure would be quite a bit higher. Long term mental health problems following post natal depression or psychosis?
Problems with raised BP or diabetes after pregnancies complicated by pre-eclampsia or gestational diabetes.
Incontinence.
Long term sexual health problems following a difficult birth.

The Masic foundation supports women with Obstetric anal sphincter injury. They quote 2.9% overall with 6.1% of first time births.

Which is quite a sizeable chunk of that 8%.

And also remember some surrogate mothers have never had a child of their own when they volunteer for this. Imagine going through pregnancy and childbirth, ending up with an anal sphincter injury for which a colostomy is the only way to achieve faecal continence because you thought giving someone a baby was a nice thing to do. I would think a bit of depression would accompany such an injury. Are they both added into that 8% individually or do they count as one?

Surrogacy-help me explain to my daughter why this is exploiting women
Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 17:36

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 17:26

Clearly you have access to much better data and studies on this than I do - rather than attacking me, why not provide them to help the OP?

No. I don't have access to much better data.

However, I am not the one trying to make the comparison which is false either. You are. Why are you doing that?

Do you understand how you are spreading misinformation by using data that is not specific to pregnancies that are not where a female is carrying a foetus that is not her own with this statement? (I assume you believe this is a great 'gotcha'.)

"So, if it's the danger to the mother which is the main reason for stopping surrogacy, we should start by banning living organ donation."

When you are using generalised pregnancy data to dismiss the high risk that is surrogacy pregnancies due to several issues, one of them being that the foetus is unrelated to them, knowing that they are completely lost in the generalised data.

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 18:07

@FannyCann the 8% was long-term morbidity. Short-term morbidity is much, much higher, and (I think) comorbidities are counted together. While mortality is pretty well recorded, morbidity is not. My point was simply that pregnancy is risky.

The question is, should potential surrogates be prevented from risking their lives in the fashion for this outcome?

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 18:11

DadJoke · 11/01/2024 18:07

@FannyCann the 8% was long-term morbidity. Short-term morbidity is much, much higher, and (I think) comorbidities are counted together. While mortality is pretty well recorded, morbidity is not. My point was simply that pregnancy is risky.

The question is, should potential surrogates be prevented from risking their lives in the fashion for this outcome?

What is your answer to that question?

Helleofabore · 11/01/2024 18:16

JustanotherMNSlapperTwat · 11/01/2024 18:11

What is your answer to that question?

I am all for finding out this answer.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 11/01/2024 18:17

should potential surrogates women be prevented from risking their lives in the fashion for this outcome?

FTFY

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