'What is a transwoman'

[ArabellaScott]

It seems huge chunks of the electorate have no idea what the word 'transwoman' or phrase 'transgender woman' actually mean.

https://murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2023/08/07/clarity-matters-how-placating-lobbyists-obscures-public-understanding-of-sex-and-gender/

'The results of our polling show that to avoid confusion and misunderstanding, journalists and others need to spell out clearly what sex of person is being referred to, in any context where sex matters.'

In my experience, males are permitted to be called males. But calling a transwoman a 'man' may be seen as 'misgendering'. I now just tend to use 'male' or 'male-bodied'.

Yes, that's what I meant.

I think trans identifying male and trans identifying female are easily understood descriptors. Having said that I am not sure if those terms are allowed to be used on here. The rules keep changing.

I don't think those terms are allowed.

Thank you for posting this. Fully explains the census results - I believe the questions were only tested with soevifuc groups who would be more likely to understand the phraseology.

Yes, referring to trans-identified male or trans-identified female is not allowed because it is accurate, a bit clearer than most of the terminology, and eliminates the need for 'cis'.

However, if it became ok, no doubt activists would just refer to themselves the other way round.

They are not permitted as they identify the sex of the person which is supposedly offensive and distressing.

The issue is that reality matters no matter how sad it makes people, and being sad is not a reason to hide reality. And the intentional obfustication of language and enforcing this has been how much of this damage has been achieved. It's been the intentional supported by the naively well intentioned, successfully confusing the uninformed and achieving by deception.

However this is where 'education' does not work. The more the uninformed get informed the more they see the issues. Other people cannot be made to indulge and enable the fictions of a special privileged group at the expense of their own equality and rights. That this was ever considered acceptable is boggling; that there is suprise that this is now causing anger, resentment and push back? That people don't like being used, fooled, told they don't matter? Is even more baffling. It's like those who set this up never had the capacity to understand how people work, or to see others as humans rather than service providers.

Permanently confused by the difference between 'the general public who see me as just another passer by' and 'my paid youth worker who is there to be all about me, take responsibility for meeting my needs, and provide customer satisfaction or face my complaints/consequences'.

Yes but there will always be liars and cheats. The important thing is not to let them obfuscate the plain obvious truth.

‘We shouldn’t get bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want to be. A man is a man and a woman is a woman - that’s just common sense’

Rishi Sunak’s speech today!

I'm just wondering who on earth they asked in Northern Ireland to get that result - I'd have said transgender issues are much lower profile here so far, and therefore expected more confusion rather than less!

And Twitter is already full of people saying that trans ppl are the bullied ones and that the prime minister is encouraging the bullies

its all over the media

I expect it’s going to get very heated

They are not permitted as they identify the sex of the person which is supposedly offensive and distressing.

Which is sad a truly bonkers because actually of course we usually identify the sex of the person. There's no doubt as to the sex of Elliot Page, India Willoughby, Eddie Izard, Lea Thomas etc. Most of the time, when it's not relevant, we can not have to say what their sex is but that doesn't mean that it's not bloody obvious.

It's very sad if those people can't cope with that reality and I wish they were being given help for that core issue rather than being sold a line that they can 'change sex'.

But I think trans identifying male or female is more confusing.

To me, the phrase 'trans identifying male' means 'a man who identifies as a man who is identifying as a woman.' Wouldn't that just be a man dressing up as a woman for a fancy dress party, (or a prison sentence)? ie, not a 'real' trans person

So maybe we should call them a 'man who wishes he was a woman?'

Twitter doesn't reflect real life though.

I haven't used Twitter since it rebranded as "X" and I don't think I can even look at what is on there anymore without an account, so I can't imagine that what people are saying on Twitter is either going to reflect or influence what normal people think.

How very interesting that Sunak said what he said! Is he trying to goad Starmer into some kind of position at next week’s Labour conference? Christ, I hope Starmer’s up to the challenge. I’m not personally ever going to vote Conservative but I know there are plenty of women who will vote Tory on this stand-alone subject.

I wonder where Mrs Starmer stands on trans issues?

I also decry the loss of the distinction between transvestites and transexuals. Each one can also be the other as well of course, but I was taught (years ago in the way mental health matters were taught in the age of the dinosaurs) that they are two very distinct concepts.

I miss the olden days too!

Transexual and transvestite summed it up very clearly. Now we have the Eddie Izzards of this world saying they are actual women.

It's very easy to see echo Chambers on twitter all bickering with each other on these issues.
You see the extremes at both ends, but lose sight of what 'civilians' think.

The trouble is, I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of "civilians", if well informed about the subject, would agree with the gender critical position.

Even the ones who are currently happy to say that trans women are women because they haven't really given much thought to things like prisons and sports.

Their real position is probably, "Yes, trans women are women, because that's how they identify. Oh, well, not when it comes to sports, obviously, they shouldn't be allowed to compete against female athletes, that's not fair. Prisons? Surely they wouldn't put male rapists in women's prisons, anyway, trans women can't even commit rape if they don't have a penis, can they? Oh, they do have penises? Well how are they women then? No, of course a rapist with a penis shouldn't be in a women's prison, that's insane. I don't see the issue with rape crisis groups to be honest, can't there be separate groups for women and for trans people? They don't want that? OK but what the women want matters too. Toilets and changing rooms though, I think that's OK as long as they don't still have a penis. What's that? How do we tell whether they have a penis or not before they walk in? Hmm. I hadn't really thought about that. So are there any situations in which they should be treated as women? Not really, no. Just pronouns, I suppose. It's polite to use people's preferred pronouns, isn't it? Unless they're a rapist, of course. I'm not calling a rapist "she", don't be absurd."

But you have to force the conversation to get them to think through these things. And it is mostly not on their radar.

That's how Labour is getting away with this nonsense. Because "civilians" have a million and one other things to worry about, they don't care about trans people either way and they aren't devoting any head space to this issue.

The trouble with the word 'transsexual' is that it implies the ability to actually change sex

There is no such ability in humans, any more than in any other mammal

Twitter doesn't reflect real life though.
I haven't used Twitter since it rebranded as "X" and I don't think I can even look at what is on there anymore without an account, so I can't imagine that what people are saying on Twitter is either going to reflect or influence what normal people think.

i totally agree it’s not real life, however the problem with Twitter is that the people who are on it, are nearly all the political journalists, academics, policy wonks plus of course a bunch of celebrities’ with high numbers of followers. It is disproportionately influential because of the type of people who are on it which is broadly the people who influence policy, how things are reported & therefore have power

That's similar to the phrase I used to use - "men who desire to be women" - but then it occurred to me that I shouldn't assume this as it would be an internal feeling of theirs that I don't have access to.

So now I go for "men who call themselves women" because that is what can be witnessed.

that is a good point. I will follow suit.

So this is why the diminutives of Timothy and Tiffany are banned terms?

Because it’s a little clearer what sex we are talking about?

Autumn Sandeen. American TRA.

“I’ve always said there are two groups that are going to make change in transgender legislation and the “gender identity and expression” related language in legislation. It’s going to be trans youth because … they demystify it and take the sex right out of the trans experience.”

Unfortunately the youtube video of him saying this is no longer available.