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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Update from Jo Phoenix

293 replies

Imnobody4 · 18/08/2023 17:45

Sorry can't find the previous thread. I thought someone might like to attend. 18 witnesses!! Bet that's just a tactic to intimidate.

https://twitter.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1692558010323702045?t=O8s-xIF3iu564FVwyaYEhg&s=19

NEWSFLASH

45 days to go.

I received news this week that the venue for my hearing has changed. It is now at Watford Tribunal Centre, 2nd floor, Radius House, 51 Clarendon Road, Watford. It will be in an open court (i.e. members of the public are allowed to attend). The dates remain the same.

The case starts on 2nd October with reading and preliminary issues. Evidence-giving starts on 3rd October. At present, I still do not know the exact number of witnesses the OU is calling. In the preliminary case hearing, the OU's representative claimed that they would like to call 18. We are scheduled to exchange witness statements at the end of next week (25th August) and it is then that I will know if all of those 18 witnesses are, indeed, being called to give evidence.

https://twitter.com/JoPhoenix1/status/1692558010323702045?s=19&t=O8s-xIF3iu564FVwyaYEhg

OP posts:
Thread gallery
24
Froodwithatowel · 22/01/2024 22:01
Anticipation Popcorn GIF

Grip on reality not improved I see.

Oh do appeal. PLEASE appeal.

RethinkingLife · 22/01/2024 22:02

PronounssheRa · 22/01/2024 21:58

Utterly shit statement from the OU

https://ounews.co/uncategorized/statement-on-employment-tribunal-ruling/

We are deeply concerned about the wellbeing of everyone involved in the case and acknowledge the significant impact it has had on Professor Phoenix, the witnesses and many other colleagues.

my bold. Have they not read the judgement?

As above, I suspect they'll be offering a support service to their staff and signatories to the open letter, not least because of the comments from the ET judgment.

I'd be surprised if they have anything to offer JP. Mind, a foil cutter for the fizz would be a nice gesture.

RethinkingLife · 22/01/2024 22:07

Froodwithatowel · 22/01/2024 22:01

Grip on reality not improved I see.

Oh do appeal. PLEASE appeal.

They claim to be considering it.

Our priority has been to protect freedom of speech while respecting legal rights and protections. We are disappointed by the judgement and will need time to consider it in detail, including our right to appeal.

SupportRobin · 22/01/2024 22:16

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia presuming that's the one to the tune of Guantanamera, you could also use the Winter Wonderland tune with a similar start and "walking in a GC wonderland" as the last line.

Or to the tune of "I love you baby"
"Ben Cooper KC,
you are the love of my life.
Ben Cooper KC,
I wanna be your wife
Ben Cooper KC,
I want ginger hair too"

Although to be honest, I think further modification of that one beyond swapping out "I'd let you shag my wife" is necessary if we don't want to give out Annie Wilkes from Misery vibes.

gyf · 22/01/2024 22:17

RethinkingLife · 22/01/2024 22:02

As above, I suspect they'll be offering a support service to their staff and signatories to the open letter, not least because of the comments from the ET judgment.

I'd be surprised if they have anything to offer JP. Mind, a foil cutter for the fizz would be a nice gesture.

Edited

Point of order, your honour: you don't use a foil cutter for fizz, the foil on those bottles comes off nice and easy. Perhaps they could run to an icebucket?

RethinkingLife · 22/01/2024 22:19

Joan Smith in Unherd

The judgment comes only days after a report by the Committee for Academic Freedom revealed that nine universities have policies under which academics who don’t believe that transwomen are women are considered “transphobic”. They include Imperial College, Sheffield Hallam University and the London Business School.

Such policies are clearly in conflict with both the right to free expression and the intellectually curious atmosphere that should exist in higher education. They are further evidence of the way in which trans lobbyists have degraded basic rights in one institution after another, forcing people to accept transparent nonsense about “gender identity”.

https://unherd.com/thepost/jo-phoenix-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views/

Jo Phoenix wins tribunal case over gender-critical views

A gender-critical academic has won her case against the Open University. In a significant victory for academic freedom, an employment tribunal has concluded that Professor Jo Phoenix suffered discrimination, harassment and was constructively dismissed...

https://unherd.com/thepost/jo-phoenix-wins-tribunal-case-over-gender-critical-views

IcakethereforeIam · 22/01/2024 22:41

That mealy statement from the OU reminds me, has anything further been forthcoming from SWE following their drubbing from Rachel Meade?

Datun · 22/01/2024 22:42

ooh, thank you for posting all the nitty-gritty.

And all the gleeful , laughing with heads back hurrahs!!

yay, Jo 🍾🥂

ArabeIIaKarenScott · 22/01/2024 22:58

Froodwithatowel · 22/01/2024 22:01

Grip on reality not improved I see.

Oh do appeal. PLEASE appeal.

😁Can we gently encourage them?

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 22/01/2024 23:06

SupportRobin · 22/01/2024 22:16

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia presuming that's the one to the tune of Guantanamera, you could also use the Winter Wonderland tune with a similar start and "walking in a GC wonderland" as the last line.

Or to the tune of "I love you baby"
"Ben Cooper KC,
you are the love of my life.
Ben Cooper KC,
I wanna be your wife
Ben Cooper KC,
I want ginger hair too"

Although to be honest, I think further modification of that one beyond swapping out "I'd let you shag my wife" is necessary if we don't want to give out Annie Wilkes from Misery vibes.

I was using the Winter Wonderland tune. I don't know that other one.

BreadInCaptivity · 22/01/2024 23:10

IcakethereforeIam · 22/01/2024 22:41

That mealy statement from the OU reminds me, has anything further been forthcoming from SWE following their drubbing from Rachel Meade?

No.

The silence is deafening.

DialSquare · 22/01/2024 23:15

I think SupportRobin may mean Can't Take My Eyes Off You.

IcakethereforeIam · 22/01/2024 23:21

I think 'Super Cooper' was quite popular when he first came into our lives.

Now I've got the chorus of 'Hey, Big Spender', but with 'Hey, Ben Cooper'.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 22/01/2024 23:41

DialSquare · 22/01/2024 23:15

I think SupportRobin may mean Can't Take My Eyes Off You.

I know the Frankie Valli song, it's Guantanamera that I don't know.

SupportRobin · 23/01/2024 01:41

I have to admit that I've never bothered listening to Guantanamera until I went to look for a link, but it's the basis of the standard name chant eg
"One Jo Phoenix,
There's only one Jo Phoenix
One Jo-o Pheeeeeeeenix
There's only one Jo Phoenix"

although to be honest it generally works best for players with 2 syllable first name and surname.

"Guantanamera" by THE SANDPIPERS 1966 HQ AUDIO

"Guantanamera"is perhaps the best known Cuban song and that country's most noted patriotic song . In 1966, The Sandpipers recorded a most engaging version of...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYxCF6vHDok

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 23/01/2024 02:04

SupportRobin · 23/01/2024 01:41

I have to admit that I've never bothered listening to Guantanamera until I went to look for a link, but it's the basis of the standard name chant eg
"One Jo Phoenix,
There's only one Jo Phoenix
One Jo-o Pheeeeeeeenix
There's only one Jo Phoenix"

although to be honest it generally works best for players with 2 syllable first name and surname.

I went looking for that tune in its "terrace" form and found https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4kBI4oICwU filmed a few days after Sir Bobby Robson's death.

Just as happens to "We Are Sailing" when it becomes "No One Likes Us", the rhythm has been warped with the long notes cut too short, at which point I no longer spontaneously recognise the two tunes as being the same.

Sunderland Fans Tribute for Sir Bobby Robson at Celtic

Sunderland fans at Celtic with a standing applause for Sir Bobby Robson in the last minute of injury time in our 2-1 winTheres only one Bobby RobsonGreat moment

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4_kBI4oICwU

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 23/01/2024 02:35

To the tune of "She'll be coming around the mountain when she comes", which I've just found out from YouTube is used with different lyrics that reference The Battle Of Britain at England v Germany matches.

🎼
There were 18 OU witnesses on the stand.

There were 18 OU witnesses on the stand.

There were 18 OU witnesses, 18 OU witnesses, 18 OU witnesses on the stand.

Then Ben Cooper's cross-examining knocked one down.

Then Ben Cooper's cross-examining knocked one down.

Then Ben Cooper's cross-examining, Cooper's cross-examining, Cooper's cross-examining knocked one down.

There were 17 OU witnesses on the stand...
🎼

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 23/01/2024 03:15
Tom Naylor Soccer GIF by Portsmouth Football Club

Mining this N entirely SFW video for material.

To the tune from around 60 seconds in:

🎼Cooper's on fire, your defence is terrified! 🎼

TeenDivided · 23/01/2024 06:58

I really hope the main protagonists are made to apologise unreservedly on twitter making it clear jo has every right to hold the views she does and they are not transphobic.
Plus a letter on ou website sent to all students.

Puddlelane123 · 23/01/2024 07:06

Best news ever to wake up to!!!

DerekFaker · 23/01/2024 08:47

Thread from someone who studied with the OU at the time. They are totally and utterly captured.

https://twitter.com/Obsolesence/status/1749514023446483042?t=q40RhJuT5aW6PFMo1VE54Q&s=19

https://twitter.com/Obsolesence/status/1749514023446483042?s=19&t=q40RhJuT5aW6PFMo1VE54Q

IamRoyFuckingKent · 23/01/2024 08:51

Fantastic news, well done Jo and Ben <swoon swoon>

DerekFaker · 23/01/2024 08:54

That thread in full for those who don't do twitter. The numbering is a bit wrong, but I have copied each tweet in order

I was studying with @OpenUniversity when Jo was being harassed. In fact I contacted her to ask for help as students were also being scared in to silence over any discussion about the significance of sex in their studies. 1/

We'd been told we could not discuss why the MOU (signed by NHS, Counselling bodies & the sodding Chief Medical Officer) to affirm gender identities was ethical, when some of the most vulnerable people were being dragged into the cult. Staff were scared. 2/

We were given specific categories on which to write, told we must only use Gender & def not Sex, despite need to research prostitution, pornography & why women seem to end up victims of medical practices that deform their bodies & those of their babies (thalidomide, vaginal 3/

mesh & silicon implants) without anyone held to account. A couple of us tentatively expressed concerns about being penalised for daring to point out the sex of victims of crimes was actually a Very Important Thing Indeed. We were told on the quiet by tutors to toe the line 4/

or we'd be marked down. I was actually asked by my (male) tutor if I genuinely thought there was a difference between the impact on lives of males & females. He went silent when I sent a long list of ways in which female lives were directly & negatively impacted by their sex 4/

We were told on OU forums by the head of the course that language rules were applied for a reason & we must comply, conveniently forgetting to mention that as a #Stonewall champion the OU were rated on their ability to erase sex & boost gender in their curriculum. 5/

When I submitted FOIs (under a false name not to risk my degree) about how their unlawful EDI policies were established @OpenUniversity refused to answer, citing a clause no-one has heard used before, claiming I was part of a campaign targeting them (I was not). I am sure 5/

they would have been advised by #Stonewall on how to hide, how to remain opaque, how to avoid the law (until the magnificent Jo called their bluff). I had planned to continue postgrad study but strangely my emails asking about sex-based research topics remained unanswered 6/

and no supervisors offered a space to this gender critical student that had done quite well in her degree. I'm glad I didn't pursue the research because if an iron-cored powerhouse like Jo was bullied unbearably, I stood no chance as a lowly student. 7/

I'm appalled that a wonderful institution like @OpenUniversity embraces an ideology that limits the ability of staff & students to fully engage on topics, to send students into the world with a shrunken vocab & undeveloped ability to consider significance of sex on human lives 8/

While you may think that there will be some courses that will remain unaffected, the OU policies have been rewritten to minimise sex. I took part in the (relentless) consultation process, & memorably one on why there were less female OU students in STEM. 9/

The consultation organisers insisted on referring to gender, while I insisted on referring to sex. Other students called me transphobic for daring to suggest it mattered if you wanted to really understand & fix the imbalance. But I guess if you can get males to identify as 10/

females the imbalance will eventually disappear, problem solved & @OpenUniversity appears inclusive & diverse, while stacking STEM courses with more men. 11/

I'm so please Jo won her case as she (and another troublesome OU employee) gave me a lot of strength to keep fighting while studying. Hopefully OU can be saved, or at least made to comply with the law in time, & students can return to questioning, challenging & thinking freely.

IcakethereforeIam · 23/01/2024 09:01

Could that thread be sent to that guy who's been appointed as a free speech tsar recently? His name escapes me, but he hosted Kathleen Stock at his university when that ridiculous tra glued herself to the floor.

Thank you for reproducing it.

nauticant · 23/01/2024 09:03

Jo Phoenix will be on Woman's Hour this morning. Let's hope Emma Barnett is the interviewer.