Jailing a mother of three - WTF

[Capitalismwantsyou]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit

Bad laws are made when they are a knee jerk reaction to an emotive case

Nothing should be changed about the law in this area.

She was pregnant and had 5 months prior to lockdown to seek abortion if she needed that. Abortion in this country is easy to arrange, free, confidential, we are incredibly lucky compared to some other countries.

She simply saw her opportunity once lockdown commenced and the rules on abortion pills being sent out to women changed and took that as an option. Her only other alternative option would have been to go through with the birth and face the consequences of whatever was going on with her relationships

She seems to be being painted as some poor mentally ill, incompetent person taht didnt know how to prevent her pregnancy, didnt want another pregnancy (so why didnt she do something about that), couldnt get health care due to lockdown (not true) when this is far from the situation

Well said.

If she had strangled or murdered a new born we would all be saying she could rot in hell.
instead she killed a baby that was viable whilst still inside her. I can’t see a difference really. It’s murder of a baby that was able to breathe independently and was fully grown - would have survived outside the womb.
there were many months previous to get an abortion done if that was her choice. She waited right till the end when the baby was fully developed, and the lied to get the pills.
I don’t understand the defence of this woman at all.

Again, well said. However if she did it after birth, they would all be saying post partum psychosis. 😑

FFS! The poor woman was 45. If periods stop at that age the first thought for most is probably menopause not pregnancy so it's highly plausible she wouldn't have known how far along she was. She isn't a danger and going beyond that, no woman in a civilised country should be imprisoned for having an abortion at any stage, the length of pregnancy is a red herring.

The poor woman??? Her poor child. Do you honestly believe that women should be allowed to terminate healthy full term babies? What about a newborn? At what point are you saying it becomes illegal / immoral to do so? Words fail me…

She knew she was pregnant when she moved back in with her previous partner and could have taken the appropriate steps to get an abortion. Instead she took the steps to ensure the baby died, at 34 weeks. If she plead guilty to child destruction they would have suspended the sentence, she’d didn’t, so she can’t of been that remorseful. What if they stop tele abortions which make accessing an abortion quicker, and you you really think social services would have left her children in her care? She would have still had to give birth either way, so what she did was cruel, but I do think the punishment was severe.

I think the whole complex case highlights the difficulties of the idea of bodily autonomy.

Don't get me wrong I think bodily autonomy would be lovely. But the reality is - if you are pregnant - that it just isn't that straight forward. You have another body in your body. Perhaps in the early stages it is not another body. But by 35 weeks it certainly is.

I do think bodily autonomy is a fantasy we humans have - wishful thinking - based on an (understandable) need for control.

Reality is we don't have bodily autonomy.
We dont control our bodies - we are being invaded by external things all the time.

I think the anti vaccine / pro vaccine debate highlight this actually. You can attain immunity on both sides of that fence - either through the vaccine being put in your body or through catching covid and having that virus in your body. They both lead to immunity and they both involve a breach of the idea that our bodies are for us to choose what to do with. A hell of a lot happens to our bodies that we do not want nor choose.

I am in favour of abortion - I have had one myself when I was young and hopelessly ill equipped to have a child.

But I do not support abortion of a near full term infant being legal. And I do not think a woman's right to choose extends right up to birth. I think the line must be earlier than that.

It would be nice if it were simpler and not such a complex balancing of the interests and needs of the mother as against the baby. It would be nice if as women we could do as we pleased without having these awful conundrums. Of course it would.

It would also be nice if a man who felt like he should be a woman could really just make a choice and fully BE one and feel at peace. Of course it would.

But that is not the REALITY of nature and biology.

There is a debate about where the line is but by 34 weeks there are two bodies and two persons to think about.

No. She was 8 months pregnant with a healthy, viable life. Her sentence is reasonable.

It’s not as if she had no other options and would have been forced to care for the baby. She could have started adoption proceedings.

In a 'civilised country' the rights of the most vulnerable in society should be given uttermost consideration. So whilst we allow for abortion, we do so with an aim of careful ethical consideration and balance, so that we don't sanction human life as disposable by-proxy. This situation crosses the line into treating human life as disposable.

Last year there was a debate on this forum about abortion pills being given in the post. Some of us said it was a bad idea, that it made disposing of human life too easy plus fears about coercion. We argued that life is highly valuable and should necessitate the normal procedures and checks before being terminated. This scenario rather proves that argument correct. Postal abortion pills allow for misuse.

The Judge did right, it cannot be allowed that an impression us given that this sort of action is ok.

If a man had deliberately done violence to this woman so that she spontaneously miscarried a child because he didn't want it or it wasn't his, you'd be saying he committed two murders.
It makes me sick.

But what if a woman has „her own extremely good reasons“ for wanting to get rid of a baby after birth? I‘m pro choice, but not at that late stage.

Difficult case, someone calling for decriminalisation around abortion this morning

I’m not sure. Very late term use of pills in this way is a hard one

She killed an almost full term term baby as she was 8 months pregnant. Babies have a chance of survival from around 24 weeks and this increases. This baby had a high chance of survival as it was over 30 weeks. She had to give birth anyway so no need to kill the baby!

Also, many women aren’t peri in their 40s and still have regular periods in their early 50s. That evil woman knew how far along she was because her search history showed that she googled how to end a 6 month pregnancy.

Contraception, the morning after pill and early abortion is free in the UK. She could’ve terminated the pregnancy in the first trimester or early part of the second trimester. She had plenty of time. I also think it’s disgusting that she didn’t have a face to face consultation before receiving the pills.

FFS it proves nothing of the sort. Because of what one women did, women should've lost access to abortion during the pandemic?

Fingerscrossedfor2021HK · Today 03:30
@BodgerLovesMashedPotato - so get an abortion within the time limit… your own bodily autonomy stops at the point where it violates another person’s rights. I am a very much pro choice but there are limits and the law has quite rightly drawn the line here”

Absolutely this.

Why should she have the option of “foetal euthanasia prior to extraction?”

There is already a shortage of doctors prepared to perform late terminations, with some women having to travel hundreds of miles for the procedure. What few people acknowledge is that late terminations aren’t just traumatic for the pregnant woman, they’re traumatic for the medical staff as well.

How many doctors (and theatre staff) do you think would feel able to euthanise a healthy 38-week foetus? I believe your proposal would see more doctors opting out of performing terminations altogether, as they are currently allowed to do.

I was just coming on to make this point. Medics have enough distressing scenarios to deal with without heaping more onto them.

TeaAndStrumpets

I was just coming on to make this point. Medics have enough distressing scenarios to deal with without heaping more onto them.”

Yes, they do. I’m not a surgeon but if I were I would refuse to carry out such late stage terminations unless the mother’s physical health was at risk or the baby had a condition that was life limiting.
I’m not religious, I agree with abortion, I agree with euthanasia under strictly controlled conditions (though personally believe that in most cases 20 weeks gestation ought to be the limit) and to me, aborting such a late stage baby is akin to murder. I really can’t understand why there is a difference in deliberately ending a life just before or just after birth at that stage.

your own bodily autonomy stops at the point where it violates another person’s rights

No one should have the right to use someone else's body as life support. Abortion is a matter of eviction.

Quite. All the slogan throwers on here advocating an abortion free for all have a rather blinkered view I believe. I would like to ask if any of them are medical professionals?

They have laws that claim to protect the foetus in several US states. The result is women in prison for miscarrying.

😢

“No one should have the right to use someone else's body as life support. Abortion is a matter of eviction.”

What a horrible, chilling statement.