Are there people who consider themselves both Gender-Critical and Non-Binary?

[GenZecoWych]

(mn regular, FWR regular, namechange for this thread only)

It sort of feels like these two terms "Gender Critical" and "Non-Binary" can't possibly apply to the same individual because if you are Gender Critical then that intrinsically means understanding everyone as non-binary.

Most people in my family are autistic, including myself and my child.

I consider myself GC. I don't have a gender identity, but if I did believe in gender as a thing I would be non-binary because I certainly have no female gender identity. But although I am not cis I have never considered using they/them pronouns myself because it seems to me that doing so is rather a way of confirming that male and female sexist stereotypes are true and appropriate for most people, indeed for everyone who isn't they/them - and that seems wrong to me.

I have brought up DC in as un-sexist a way as possible. I have always said "gender is sexism". But the world is still very sexist.

DC (male, age 13) wishes to identify as non-binary and use they/them pronouns. They are clear that they understand themselves as male, have no wish to deny that or change their body, but they think that this will distance them from the sexist male behaviour of the majority of boys they see around them - they think that this move will put them in a different category and consider this to be an important way to express their non-sexism. It's a totally different view point to my own.

They don't want to talk about it and don't want my advice. My feeling is that they think they can make this change to avoid sexists making sexist assumptions about them but I don't think the world is going to be kind like that. People will make even more assumptions about them as a person who asks for they/them pronouns.

I know that I can't talk them out of this, and that my role is to love and accept them for who they are, and that we don't have to agree on this. We already disagree on many things (matters of vegetarianism or otherwise, matters of the existence or otherwise of a deity/deities etc).

I also know that if they reach out to other pro-gender-ideology people or groups in the hopes of finding understanding and people with a similar mindset they are going to encounter points of view that are much more sexist and unpleasant, including groomers and abusers who use the trans umbrella for disguise. I am frightened. Are there any organisations or forums which focus on teens who are trying to make sense of all of this which try to create a space where a GC understanding of biology and a non-binary kind of self-expression can coexist?

I have never been exactly binary and I don’t think anyone is.

They are just labels OP, meaningless labels at that.

So yes, I consider myself both GC and non-binary, and also not GC nor non-binary.

I have read more of the thread, and can see I should have said non-conforming to one or other stereotype of gender, rather than non binary.

Maybe it is easier for your son to give himself the label ‘non-binary’ for now so he has a slot he can fit into with his contemporaries, as long as he is clear he is a boy, and there is no sex spectrum.

If you need a label at all, "Gender non-confirming" covers absolutely everything that "non-binary" gender waffle tries to grapple with while failing abysmally.

Pronouns are sex based.
Forcing people you've never met to refer to you as a "they/them" is utter narcissism when everyone can see your sex in black and white.

You can only have a male non-binary person or a female non-binary person anyway, which is still binary - unless you pretend sex doesn't exist or "it's a spectrum" which gender ideologists do.

In the 89s we would have called this ‘in touch with his feminine side’. Simpler times.

80s

I am aware that I technically meet the definition of "non-binary" but never describe myself as such because I think it's generally a load of attention-seeking rubbish. (Though for some teenagers who have been effectively brainwashed by the trans movement it's not necessarily attention-seeking. I am not a teenager however.)

What is the definition of non binary?

Pronouns are sex based.
Forcing people you've never met to refer to you as a "they/them" is utter narcissism when everyone can see your sex in black and white.

Perhaps this is something you could gently broach with your son, OP?

The fact that absolutely everybody will see him as a boy is inevitable and there is really nothing that will change that perception (except extensive, invasive surgeries which probably won’t do much more than make it take a split second longer to clock him as male) will make his life incredibly frustrating.

Sure, the people who love him will try and remember the new rules about language but it’s near impossible to do it consistently, when you are tired, ill, in a panic about something unrelated etc. We all subconsciously recognise and recall someone’s sex, even if we only met them
once (eg I can’t remember the names of my primary school teachers (4 women, 1 man) or the obstetricians for 2 pregnancies (both men).

He’s wanting something that isn’t practical or possible and when NB inevitably fails he could escalate rather than back down. A lot of kids use NB as a stepping stone to full trans and then you’ll be battling to preserve his future fertility, sexual function and bone density.

I’ve heard that puberty can be quite frightening for boys as the testosterone surge can make them feel very different to before and the new feelings are intense and discombobulating - could he be worried about the growing up part of changing from boy to man and the they/them strategy is one of avoidance? That the real fear is about the beginnings of becoming an adult, rather than gender?

Does he have good, kind, adult male role models in his life? Sometimes a new-gender announcement is a rejection of the same sex parent - does he struggle in his relationship with Dad?

Is he online a lot? Does he play a lot of video games? Some kids seem to become very invested in the avatars they create digitally and if they are happiest when role playing online, it’s sort of understandable that the online fantasy self becomes more valued than the offline ‘meatsack’ and the kid wants to try and manifest that character in the real world.

Does he fancy anyone? There is a lot of casual ‘cisboys are trash’ chat amongst teen girls which could potentially be quite hurtful if said by a crush?

Lastly, is there a lunchtime LGBT club at school? Sometimes autistic, shy and/or bullied kids gravitate towards these clubs because it’s a way to stay indoors with a kindly teacher rather than deal with the sensory issues in a crowded dinner hall or the rough and tumble of football and fights in the playground. If you aren’t actually same sex attracted then a NB identity would give access to the club and a potential friendship group.

Try and keep him grounded in the material world, if you don’t have one already, install parental controls on your router. A lot of online trans spaces are only a single click away from hardcore porn and that shit really isn’t good for 13 year old boys.

I’ve heard that puberty can be quite frightening for boys as the testosterone surge can make them feel very different to before and the new feelings are intense and discombobulating - could he be worried about the growing up part of changing from boy to man and the they/them strategy is one of avoidance?
This sort of thought occurred to me in the middle of the night. I know, OP, that you are worried about the adopting of a NB persona but it's just another label. Adolescents try out all sorts of persona as they attempt to find out what sort of a grown-up they are going to be. It might be worth discussing this with DS - discussing the journey but not the specific path taken.
It's nearly 20 years old now but I wonder if the film Mean Girls might speak to him. It's all about tribes, fitting-in and not-fitting-in. Spoiler alert but the take-away from the film is that, after a fraught time in puberty, everybody settles down and becomes who they are. And that's OK.
Is he into books? Can you find some coming-of-age novels? Is Adrian Mole too subtle for teenagers, would they laugh at his self-absorbed ridiculousness? Harry Potter ("It takes a great deal of bravery..."), Lord of the Flies (this too shall pass when the grown-ups take charge). You probably need some more modern books but I'm not up to speed enough to recommend. However, the important message is everybody, from time immemorial, struggles to establish their grown-up persona. Don't worry, you will get there.

Don't look on this as a sex/gender debate, look on it as growing-up pains. Smile and nod but ask awkward questions. Be a sounding board but let him figure it out for himself. Don't back him into a position that he cannot retreat from.

I prefer “gender nonconforming” to “non-binary” because while I do believe gender exists, I believe it to be a social construct of stereotypes, expectations and roles dictated by society based on our sex all in a patriarchal society. So fighting the patriarchy means dismantling their gender construct brick by brick and only by women being gender nonconforming do we make progress for women’s equality.

Non-binary is really a silly term for being gender non-conforming.

"Non-binary" doesn't exist. It's "gender non-conforming". Also, "cis" is a slur word.

Non-binary is really a silly term for being gender non-conforming.
You know that, I know that, OP knows that. She just needs to guide let her DS work it out, too.

I can see how if presented with gender ideology through school or peers and felt I had to pick a label that I might have picked non binary or agender to describe my non-conformity to female gender stereotypes as a teen. In fact, it wouldn't have taken much pressure to consider that I was really a boy.

But the difference I think as an adult approaching this ideology is I have the perspective that most people are gender conforming to some degree because it's just sexist outdated stereotypes.

WRT your son, as you say it's his decision to call himself that and I'd be curious about what it means to him.

I'd struggle with the imposition of pronouns on other people because that seems a really entitled pushy, masculine thing to do. So seems at odds with his rejection of toxic masculinity. I'd also talk with him about sexism and how it still exists in the gender world, where girls who identify as non binary often take much more drastic steps than boys.

Supervising his internet access so you know he isn't falling down more dangerous rabbit holes would be a good idea. I'd also try and get him involved in some extracurricular activities - could be volunteering, drama or something with animals if he's not into sport. Something where he isn't overly dwelling on himself, ideally active and building social skills.

Most people are gender non conforming to some degree*

Try talking to these guys, they’re very good:

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

I think what your DS does not yet understand is that he is now being sexist. He’s a boy looking at male macho stereotypes and recognising that they don’t apply to him. But instead of accepting that he is a gentle boy and helping the world understand that some boys are gentle, he’s denying his boyhood because he feels boys have to be more macho than he is. Probably he has sexist friends and is trying to make sense of their comments. Instead of adapting his self-concept he ajould call out their sexism when they say he isn’t like the other boys. All he needs to say is “Oh dear, didn’t know you were into sexist stereotypes. Don’t you know nice guys exist?!”

He also needs to recognise that the whole trans/nonbinary movement is a cult and if he goes to their events/forums he will quickly get sucked into cult brainwashing tactics, which are extremely effective and seek to alienate children from their families. I’d suggest you and he do some reading about cults and particularly their recruitment strategies, to help him recognise cult-thinking when he encounters it.

He also needs to recognise that if he goes around saying he is non-binary he’ll be instantly stereotyped. He cannot escape stereotypes. What stereotypes he is labelled with will depend on who is doing the labelling, trans activists would encourage him to view himself as a misunderstood hero. But the majority of people I’m afraid to be blunt would think he’s being a sexist, gullible, attention-seeking fool, so he really needs to be aware what attitudes he will encounter if he persists in calling himself non-binary. He’s doing it 5 years too late to be fashionable.

I've shared this essay by Rebecca Reilly-Cooper quite a few times before and I thought it's very relevant to this thread too - so here it is again for anyone who hasn't yet read it.

An excellent and clear exploration of gender identities and the concept of 'non-binary' in particular. It's probably the best price of writing I've read on the problems with the ideology and there are a lot out there!

aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

Keep being supportive but this seems key

"They don't want to talk about it and don't want my advice."

This seems the most positive approach suggested

I share this a lot all over the internet when talking about teens, trans identifying or not. I originally got it from another Mumsnetters, a woman whose family where from one of the former communist countries.

The internet is teaching them all sorts of interesting facts that they can then perfectly recite (I can still remember all the words to the first Wham! album) but it’s not giving them the ability to question the veracity of the ‘facts’ they are learning.

This is free to download in a printable format. I’ve got it stuck to the fridge door and we’ve made a sort of dinner-table game of picking a question each and applying it to what ever interesting topic of the day the kids (now 11-23) have picked up from school/internet/uni/whatever.

Works just as well with stuff like the rise of Andrew Tate as it does with gender identity and because the kids are now used to the same questions for ALL topics, they don’t immediately burst into tears when someone asks something they can’t answer about whatever thing it is they are currently emotionally invested in (we did have a spate of that with the middle child when she was 13-14 but she’s 16 now and appears to be passed that phase).

Use them for other topics first and build up the habit, eventually he’ll (hopefully!) start applying them to the topics that interest him without the need for prompting.

https://get.futurefocusedlearning.net/critical-thinking-cheatsheet