Men in conversation

[Bedusa]

Perhaps I'm late to the party in realising this, but does anyone else find that men almost never reciprocate in conversation?
I was with a few work colleagues yesterday (male dominated workplace) just making small talk whilst waiting for something. As we could all hear music playing from a neighbouring area (not too loud but definitely audible) I asked those present (all men) what they liked to listen to, what was on in their car. They all replied and joined in the conversation quite enthusiastically, but guess what, no one asked me. I notice this time and time again. Is it just me? I'm a fat middle aged woman which probably / possibly has a bearing on this I guess (presumably because I'm of no interest). But you'd think someone might just ask me something one time out of politeness?!

I work in a quite make dominated environment and I can’t honestly remember any instance when a man asked me a question about myself.

In fact, I’ll frequently find myself in a group with two or more men, either in a work setting or a work social setting, all having a conversation about something that I happen to work on or know quite a bit about, and they are all interested in each other’s opinions and asking questions of the other men; and I can stand there forever and none of the will so much as even acknowledge that I’m standing there, never mind ask my opinion or include me in the conversation in any way.

The first time it happened, as a young woman, I thought that the sheer awkwardness of the situation must surely have alerted the men to how basically rude they were being; but no. It’s happened multiple times since then - sometimes on topics I know far more about than the men and it’s painful in a cringe way for me to hear them deferring to each other and marvelling at each other’s (limited) knowledge of a topic while I’m stood right there like a lemon, and they’re literally ignoring me. Sometimes it gets so awkward that I really want to escape from the situation, but I force myself to stay there to see just how long it can go on. It always only ends when the men involved have something else to do.

I also thought that maybe it was just me, at first, but I now see it happen to other women all the time, too.

It makes me think that despite overt social appearances, sexism and misogyny is so ingrained at an unconscious level in nearly every man that I despair at how it might ever be eradicated. I think we’re far less on the way to real equality than most of us think. It really does bring it home that, as a pp said upthread, we really aren’t thought of as full humans by most men. It’s like they accept that we’re around and in the room, but actually in practice, they quite literally edit us out of their mental picture of what and who really matters in any situation.

*male dominated environment!

I wouldn't have said that, but I do think that men and women seem to do small talk a little differently. I actually find men a little easier in that area, women's small talk always seems more complicated to me, and I flounder. (This is obviously a generalization.)

Maybe it is that with women there is an expectation of a kind of reciprocal mirroring? With men I find you can just say what you want to, and then they do the same.

In any case, I don't think either of those things are worse or indicative of any sort of lack of interest. I imagine if you'd just gone ahead and told them your view they'd have listened, maybe that's what they expected you to do.

Lol, this.

I would also say, that in my experience men are less likely to ask personal kinds of questions in conversations, and this is true when they talk among themselves as well. They are much more likely to talk about things. The thing some women do where they trade personal information to create intimacy is just not a male relationship pattern.

As far as work, I worked for many years in a very male dominated environment, and in work situations, I found I had to change the way I conversed a little. Basically, I had to be a little less apologetic and more confident when presenting ideas.

This wasn't totally a bad thing. Some people are just aggressive assholes and need to learn to give room to others, but a lot of women tend to give their views with a lot of apologies, and there is really no reason they should.

Agree completely. I know a fair few men in my area from dog-walking, and they can talk forever about themselves in a way that only 1 woman I know does. Never any attempt to ask a question back.

You see it on comedy panel shows too, don't you? Lots of tedious men shouting over each other to be the funniest, and the honorary woman sitting awkwardly and quietly because she kind of knows how socially inept and desperate it all is.

Its definitely a thing. I've seen my normally ok DP do this to other men and women. I do not know how to stop him. He bored his mother witless one time talking about work, and I could see her eyes glaze over, yet she didnt move away or make any gesture to shut him up.
Only last week a man came to take an old bed frame, he was late, he was very obviously trying to get the bed and drive off , he even said he was late for his tea and his wife would wonder where he was. And my DP stands there giving zero help, opining on how he gets to work, where he works etc. I wanted to say, the man doesnt care so please for the love of God, shut up. But I didnt.

I watch him bore people, yet for some reason they still talk to him. What is wrong with these people?

@naughtytortiefortytwo - why don't you just interject with your informed viewpoint? You don't need to wait to be asked

I work in a very male-dominated environment, and I find male-pattern conversation much more straight forward than female-pattern.

I also recognise a pp's comment about how his ex and her friends talk over each other. It's quite a skill to tune into the rhythm of animated female conversation, to know how and when to enter. Many men (including my DH) struggle with. It

Men and women socialise differently. Men are socialised to talk about things, rather than ourselves. So we talk about work, we talk about music, we talk about the football, we don't tend to talk about how those things make us feel. We leave gaps for someone else to pick up the conversation if they want to, but we don't ask questions, we dont just hand the conversation over. We're taught to be competitive from childhood, and that extends to how we converse.

Girls on the other hand are taught to put others in front of themselves. So they ask questions, they willingly hand control of the conversation over to others, and they don't take control back without an invite.

Neither approach is great, especially when met with the other approach. Men need to learn to hand the conversation over, women need to butt in more, share their opinions without an invitation.

Obviously the above is a massive generalisation, my female DP for example will happily talk for half an hour when she gets in from work without noticing noone else is getting a word in, whereas I say very little, but make sure I get my point across when I do have something to say. But broadly, the two sexes are taught to converse very differently during childhood.

Also I think women won't say, "well, you've been banging on a bit guys, I'll just go and have a conversation with that other group as they sound a lot less selfobsessed" to men they don't know well. Because for good reason we try not to antagonize bigger, stronger people who don't have any particular reliance on us!

No, we judge silently. And condemn with our ostentatious silence.
But believe me, we are judging. Oh yes.

I used to — but on a fair few occasions I saw exactly that look of anger on men’s faces when I did so that someone described upthread. On one occasion a male colleague was clearly so incensed at being offered a comment from a woman that he literally shouted at me! I made a complaint to my manager about that one — not that anything was actually done about it. Thankfully the colleague moved on to another job, but I certainly didn’t try to enter the conversation again the next time I heard him droning on at someone.

I’ve worked in a male dominated workplace long enough to know that all the “lean in” stuff is a trap. Try and adopt male conversational styles and workplace behaviour and you don’t find you get accepted - instead you often get held to double standards that frame women as “aggressive” or “abrasive” for interacting in the same ways that men routinely do.

As I've grown older, I am aware of being spoken over. Not finishing sentences. I now say "let me finish" and that gets me the space to finish a thought or comment but it feels constantly like pushing back.

OP - Did the conversation progress by one man saying something and then asking another man what he thought - I suspect not. So why didn't you just say what you wanted to about your music without being asked?

I would also say, that in my experience men are less likely to ask personal kinds of questions in conversations, and this is true when they talk among themselves as well. They are much more likely to talk about things

This. My ex was appalled to learn that I didn't know if my friend had a girlfriend, how many he may have had in the past, had never bothered asking him and didn't intend to. 😆

I told her we just didn't talk about that stuff.