Months created by women?

[delilabell]

I saw a sandi toksvig quote yesterday and it got me thinking. It was about how 28bdays had been marked on a prehistoric bone. So possibly it was women marking tjebdays of their cycle.
Womens cycles are generally a month long. As are months. So does this mean women created months?
Or are months based on the moon so our cycles follow the moon. Which again I think is amazing.
I know this is random ramblings but it all just popped into my head the other day.

When christianity took over from European pagan religions - not Greek, nor Hinduism, nor Judaism, but heathen Pagan religions, and I can talk specifically of the UK, 13 became an unlucky number. It was the church's opposition to pagan symbolism.

You can try to belittle and call what I am saying 'romantic nonsense' but if you look at our old folklore, if you look at our pagan stories, myths, rituals, then there is the divine balance, the divine communion.

Whether the balance was right, Christianity was more patriarchal than this. Christianity, the father worshipping, eve made of Adam's rib, woman owned by her husband, Witch burning, dirty menstruation religion.

@BlessedKali
The Chinese calendar is lunisolar, not lunar.
Im going to believe what the Chinese say about their own calendar. You are welcome to believe your 1986 book.

I never said peaceful, there have been fantastic female warriors.

I have looked at our folklore and it’s romantic nonsense that you are arguing that our Celtic ancestors were living in some matriarchal society with supreme goddesses. We weren’t, it was still a patriarchy. Women were still oppressed then.

Furthermore, you are arguing that Christianity was a “patriarchal take over” from our pagan origins when it definitely wasn’t because you are ignoring the centuries of Roman preChristian conquest and occupation and the fact that the increase in patriarchy was due to Roman law and culture, not the much later arriving Christianity.

Happy Solstice, Errol
m.youtube.com/watch?v=BbBCCqPtEV8

Of course, I also will trust what the best scholar has to say, the best evidence. I bothered to type out such a long fucking excerpt as a point of interest and discussion, its an encyclopedia of fucking MYTHS!

But if the creator of the chinese lunar calendar is male from MYTH also, then I say why not that myth be a woman??

I am not a scholar of Chinese myths, I have no idea!!

Ok, so at this point I say you are misrepresenting me. I have specifically said it was not matriarchal, but they were goddess worshipping.

The Roman Catholic church.

Then why did you say that Christianity was a “patriarchal take over” and that Christianity = patriarchy when I corrected you initially saying that the number 13 was deemed unlucky due to “patriarchy”?

You are now saying you agree with me in that the pagan society and religion before Christianity was also a patriarchy…..not a “patriarchal take over”

So, you also didn’t mean to say that it is “patriarchy” that says that 13 is unlucky after all? You agree with me when I said, no it’s not patriarchy but Christianity?

No one knows for sure why Christianity considered 13 unlucky, the main theiry is because Judas was the 13th person at the Last Supper, which has nothing to do with opposing paganism.

Norse mythology, for what it's worth, also considered 13 to be unlucky.

Different cultures have all kinds of reasons to consider some numbers lucky and others not. But probably, no numbers are actually lucky. Which is maybe something to keep in mind when trying to argue that seeing 13 as unlucky somehow correlates to Christianity being bad.

There is an awful lot of garbage "scholarship" about paganism that emerged in the late 19th century and continued to be passed around through the 20th century. You still see it in memes on the internet today from time to time.

There is an awful lot of garbage "scholarship" about paganism that emerged in the late 19th century and continued to be passed around through the 20th century.

Couldnt agree more.

... Happy Solstice, and Merry Yule!
My daughter was born a year ago today, on a full moon, which shone through the window skylight in our roundhouse, down upon us. As I waddled with her in my arms, bloody with the umbillical cord, I stopped and looked upwards and smiled at the moon! Her name is Luna Clara - clear moon, and may she always know how sacred her body is 🌙🌕🌞

I may disagree vehemently with you on some topics @Onnabugeisha , but not this one!
Happy Solstice

And Happy Birthday to little Clara Luna

Sorry, meant Luna Clara

That’s a lovely memory and birth story. It’s something you will remember twenty years from now. I do for my DC.

Im not really sure why you are hell bent on arguing with me, this has obviously touched a nerve, maybe you are Christian? I feel no need to spend an evening defending myself, and it is derailing a interesting thread. But it does bother me when you keep misrepresenting me, and inventing things I have said...

I do not agree with you that pagan religions of our land were patriarchal, I have not said that, you have invented that and are making me out to look like an idiot by making it appear I am backtracking.

I do think that 13 was considered an auspicious/lucky number in pagan religions, and I do think that Christianity made it out to be unlucky/bad, as Christianity did with many of the pagan traditions as part of it's takeover.

I do see the Roman Catholic Church as strongly patriarchal.

You are not going to beat me into thinking differently

I see you have (and I quote you directly here) '' looked at our folklore'' - do you feel you have enough authority to be the one to hold what is the truth on this matter? Do you really want to try to belittle me and beat me with a stick with your superior knowlege? What if you are wrong?

Let us argue no more. Merry Solstice, happy birthday to The Sun, without which, none of us would be here bickering with strangers on the internet! x

Youve touched a nerve because you are backtracking though while claiming you are not. You initially said:

BlessedKali · Yesterday 22:12
13 moons a year though, women have 13 periods (generally). 13 is the unlucky number.... Or so patriarchy tells us of course....

Onnabugeisha · Yesterday 22:18
Not patriarchy, but Christianity. 13 was a lucky number to the Celts & the Scandanavian polytheistic cultures. To the Christian missionaries it was the number preferred by devil worshippers.

BlessedKali · Yesterday 22:43
Christianity = patriarchy, no?

Onnabugeisha · Yesterday 22:58
No, Christianity doesn’t equal patriarchy.
When/where 13 was/is a lucky number, there is still patriarchy.

BlessedKali · Yesterday 23:05
Christianity took over from the pagan, female worshipping religions. It was male dominated. It was a patriarchal domination. Women went from sacred to dirty.

Onnabugeisha · Yesterday 23:10
Lol. No it didn’t. It replaced earlier male dominated religions.
Our various pagan European religions at the time of conversion were not female worshipping but polytheistic with goddesses ruled by gods- patriarchy even applied to goddesses.

BlessedKali · Yesterday 23:15
The pagan religions were definitely less patriarchal than christianity, polytheistic being god and goddess woship, no? When you live with nature and worship nature you see that it is a divine balance. I am not suggesting they were 'matriarchal' but that christianity was a patriarchal takeover. Are you trying to tell me that christianity is not patriarchal?

Onnabugeisha · Yesterday 23:24
No, I’m trying to tell you that patriarchy predates Christianity and is completely separate from Christianity. That your example of the number 13 being unlucky is due to “patriarchy” is completely wrong because when and where it was/is lucky, there is/was still patriarchy. And often a more patriarchal religion and society than what was in the Christian religion.

Greeks- 13 is lucky….more patriarchal than Christianity
Hindus- 13 is lucky…more patriarchal than Christianity
Jewish- 13 is lucky…more patriarchal than Christianity

And it’s romantic nonsense that if you “live with nature and worship nature you see that it is a divine balance” as most ancient religions are based on nature but still had gods supreme over goddesses.

Then more arguing, and now you are agreeing with me…as you’ve just said

BlessedKali · Today 00:20
I do think that 13 was considered an auspicious/lucky number in pagan religions, and I do think that Christianity made it out to be unlucky/bad, as Christianity did with many of the pagan traditions as part of it's takeover.

So, as I corrected you, you do agree it was Christianity not patriarchy.

The rest is splitting hairs, I think you saying women went from sacred to dirty and the pagan religions were female worshipping implied patriarchy free/matriarchal societies, because you said Christianity was a male dominated, patriarchal dominated take over. Youre saying I’m misrepresenting you. Fine. I wouldn’t have worded things that way if I thought one patriarchal religion is replacing another one myself, but you did.

The fact is women were still dirty preChristianity, and it was still fully pagan patriarchal religion and society. And you’re still ignoring that the Romans came for centuries before Christianity arrived and that much of the societal changes of a more patriarchal nature were due to Roman colonisation not Christianity.

I stick by my initial words: and i want to be specific here to UK paganism because it is what I know, i cannot speak for other regions. Uk pagan heathen religions were goddess worshipping (alongside male gods) balance of nature, earth. Christianity IS a patriarchal religion in which women have had very little worth.

Christianity stopped female healers, herbalists, midwives. They were witches and they were tortured and burnt.

If there is some sliding scale of patriarchy, Christianity is much more patriarchal than the uk religions/spirituality before.

For me, Christianity is patriarchal

I do not believe women were considered dirty before christianity. Women and fertility were worshipped.

Christianity came along with the Romans, maybe a few hundred years later, but it came with the roman catholic church all the same. The christian calendar took over the pagan calendar.

I understand you have looked into it, we can agree to disagree.

And just apart from the patriarchy business - people should realize that many pagan religions, including those in the UK, were hugely violent and not especially inclined towards love and mercy and forgiveness and universal acceptance and all that? Blood feuds, torture, really unpleasant types of what was understood as magic, and human sacrifice were not strange to many pagan religions.

I won't argue that they took a lot from nature - which is also not kind or merciful or accepting. Yes, it can be beautiful and inspiring but it is also full of pain, cruel deaths, and what seems like meaningless suffering.

One of the reason some pagans disliked Christianity was that it was perceived as soft and weak.

Im not sure who believes paganism was about 'love and mercy and forgiveness and universal acceptance'? Was it not simply earth and nature worship, worship of the land the elements, the moon and sun, of seasons. That which is tangible and in front of the eyes.
Life and death go hand in hand. Female and male as part of the life cycle.

Then christianity came along, which was worship of an intangible entity in the sky, a ruler, and it was a means of control, domination, and collection of wealth...

We are coming out of the other side only recently... Into what?

Im intrigued to know how and where it is recorded what pagans liked?

Menstruation calendars, from my understanding, would have been useless for prehistoric women because they menstruated so little. This idea of a monthly cycle is fairly new - most women throughout have been so malnourished that it was normal to have as few as 6-4-8 periods a year. Prehistoric women often didn’t even have that as their diets would have ensured menstruation wouldn’t have started until 18/19 - I’m sure I read somewhere that most PW only ever gave birth to one or two living children before dying.

Fertility was worshipped because it was rare. Prehistoric women, on the whole, only had 1-2 children before they died. Nomadic hunter gatherer tribes that still exist follow more comfortable lifestyles but even then it’s rare for a woman to have more than 3-4 kids from 18-30.

What do you mean, "what pagans liked"? We know about historic people through the written records left behind by themselves and others, and by the archaeological records. That's how we know what we do about their religious practices as well.

Do you really think that people in pre-Christian Briton, even pre-Roman Briton, was lacking in interest in power, control, domination, the collection of wealth? And that these things were unrelated to their religious worship and beliefs?

Exactly right. I alluded to this upthread. Their cycles would have been irregular due to malnutrition and STIs and pregnancy/breastfeeding would have resulted in pauses to menstruation. It’s not a reliable way to mark time.

Calendars invented in prehistoric times were lunar based, and then in the transition from prehistoric to historic times, calendars became solar or lunisolar which are more accurate.