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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nadia Whittome wants to decriminalise prostitution, because of poverty.

46 replies

Thelnebriati · 05/12/2022 23:12

Nadia says she doesn't want to talk about men who buy sex, and that its unfair you can be evicted for keeping a brothel.
No comment on why prostituted women need to work in pairs to stay safe from legal, paying customers.
twitter.com/NadiaWhittomeMP/status/1598683048509251584

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 06/12/2022 14:57

Sorry to bump this thread just as its going quiet, but I logged into Twitter earlier and saw this epic rebuttal thread. The first few tweets are about survival sex and make very grim reading.
twitter.com/guillotesque/status/1599717620952858631

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 06/12/2022 15:20

Thelnebriati · 06/12/2022 14:57

Sorry to bump this thread just as its going quiet, but I logged into Twitter earlier and saw this epic rebuttal thread. The first few tweets are about survival sex and make very grim reading.
twitter.com/guillotesque/status/1599717620952858631

Thank you for linking to this. It’s shattering, and sobering.

Justjoinedforthis · 06/12/2022 15:29

Does she mean decriminalize soliciting publicly? It’s legal to exchange sex for money in the UK.

Justjoinedforthis · 06/12/2022 15:29

Or am I also thick as mince and have misunderstood

Jourdain11 · 07/04/2023 11:28

She really is a dumb one. There are a bunch of them elected in 2019 for Momentum Labour who leave me without words. Zarah Sultana who tweeted a picture of her select committee chair ballot papers in the bin because you'd never catch her voting for a Tory. It was Nadia Whittome who said we mustn't fetishise debate, I do believe.

However, I wouldn't entirely disagree on the point of prostitution. As long as men and women have been alive, it's existed. And regulation allows better safeguarding for the women.

DustyEmbroidery · 07/04/2023 11:31

Men hating women is nothing new and I’m very sadly not shocked but when an elected Labour woman MP comes out with this I see how far some women have fallen in to hating their own sex.

Clymene · 07/04/2023 11:37

She really is one of the dimmest people ever to hold public office

Clymene · 07/04/2023 11:53

Ha! Just realised this is an old thread and I said pretty much the same thing last time I posted on it. Well, at least I'm consistent I suppose Grin

donquixotedelamancha · 07/04/2023 11:57

Clymene · 05/12/2022 23:42

She is thick as mince

This. It's what comes of electing an MP who is very, very young and who's experience of life is public school then student politics.

I've never seen her say anything original or intelligent.

How we got MPs of the low quality of this current crop is beyond me.

VitaminX · 07/04/2023 12:41

As long as men and women have been alive, it's existed.

Well, so have most forms of exploitation, violence and abuse. These things will never be fully eliminated but that's no reason to just throw in the towel and make it easier for the abusers.

VitaminX · 07/04/2023 12:44

Clymene · 07/04/2023 11:53

Ha! Just realised this is an old thread and I said pretty much the same thing last time I posted on it. Well, at least I'm consistent I suppose Grin

Haha! You're to be commended for your consistency.

Heavyraindropsarefallingonmyhead · 07/04/2023 12:47

However, I wouldn't entirely disagree on the point of prostitution. As long as men and women have been alive, it's existed. And regulation allows better safeguarding for the women.

Pedastry, men having sex with teenage boys, has been around at least 2000 years. Shall we pop in some regulations to allow better safeguarding for the teenage boys and then say crack on?

Dougalskeeper · 07/04/2023 14:20

Disgusting suggestion. Sex work is demoralising and dangerous. Penalise BOTH the prostitute AND the punter.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/04/2023 15:14

Prostituted women (and children!) are already being penalised... by reality.

It's not the punters who end up with vaginal tears, is it? Not the punters who develop constant tooth and jaw pain from hours of blowjobs.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 07/04/2023 15:27

The Physical Damage in Prostitution: Report by a Gynaecologist from Street Work

Liane Bissinger, gynaecologist
2019
German text: abolition2014.blogspot.com/2019/11/korperliche-schaden-der-
prostitution.html
[Translator’s note: Any mistakes regarding medical terms are mine, entirely.]
I am a gynaecologist with my own practice in Munich. From 1996 to 2000 I worked in Hamburg
at the “Zentrale Beratungsstelle für Sexuell Übertragbare Erkrankungen", called “ZB” for short,
in translation: “Central counselling office for sexually transmitted infections”. This was before
the Prostitution Act (2002) and before the Prostitutes’ Protection Act (2017), and it was a
comparatively progressive model by Hamburg city to counsel and to examine people, mostly
women, in prostitution. The offer was free, voluntary, and anonymous.

My report here is based on my work and my experience there, where I worked in street work and
as a gynaecologist based at the “ZB”. In my view, neither the years not the two laws have
changed anything about the health damage and the physical damage the women have been
suffering from, then and now.

The effects on their psyche, the traumatizing, is often even deeper, longer lasting, and harder to
treat in comparison to the physical damage.
The most final damage, the murder of women in prostitution, is something I explicitly wish to
mention here; between 2002 and 17 October 2019 as I am writing this, 91 “discovered” murders
of women in prostitution have been documented in Germany. (-> sex industry kills:
www.sexindustry-kills.de/doku.php )

With all the “progressiveness” and the ending of mandatory testing for those in prostitution, the
focus of our work at the core was the protection of the men/prostitutors from STIs. “No rubber”
was the demand then as it is now. So the main focus of our work was on STIs and testing was
done through the usual gynaecological examinations and through blood tests.
Gonorrhea, chlamydia, trichomonads, genital warts were diagnosed on a regular basis. Sadly, this was also true of Syphilis, Hepatitis and HIV. It is superfluous to point out that these
diagnoses were more frequent in comparison to the rest of the population. Alongside these
examinations, however, we saw many other phenomena at and in the women’s abdomens, lower
bodies: destroyed vaginal ph levels and destroyed vaginal fluids through countless rinsing of the
vagina, sometimes with harmful substances, which means a vagina devoid of any defence acting
as an entrance area for infections and inflammations, and as we know today, at a special risk for
cervical carcinoma; tears, injuries, fissures through overextension or deliberately inflicted
injuries. Tearing especially of the anus and inside the rectum.

Frequent cystitis was almost a daily occurrence, with some women taking anti-biotics as
prophylaxis (if they could afford them).
Pelvic degradation, or pelvic floor weakness. There were some cases of very young women who
already had difficulty retaining urine or faeces. This is normally a phenomenon that we associate
with births. But the pelvic floor is a multi-layered system of tissues and nerves and the repeated
overextension and also rape situations sometimes cause irreversible damage in this area.
Inflammations of the abdomen, sometimes of the ovarian tubes with the worst pains made
hospitalisation necessary (we had special official insurance forms for this). Additionally, this
very often leads to infertility.
Unwanted pregnancies. In my experience most of the women at the time were taking the pill or
had 3-Months injections. In spite of this, there were several pregnancies. In one case I remember
the pregnancy was so advanced (and denied!) that the pains the woman felt led her directly into
the hospital delivery room. It is inconceivable that she had to expose herself to the punters until
that moment. I could not follow up on her further life. Other women with earlier (and noticed)
pregnancies had the greatest difficulties – then without legal status or health insurance – to
access medically acceptable terminations.

Contraception. Often, there was a problem with the regularity or reliability. Digestive problems
for example lead to a reduced effectiveness of the pill. I consider the risks of thrombosis to be
absolutely increased in the context of the daily lives of the prostituted women. Smoking, lack of
exercise, unrecorded other risk factors … During my work at the ZB I saw a case of thrombosis
with pulmonary embolism.

Destroyed bowel environment (and therefore a diminished immune system) had many causes:
frequent enemas in order to control bowel movement (for anal practices), a completely inflamed
digestive system from the stomach to the bowels due to frequent vomiting because of revulsion,
oral practices, extremely poor nutrition, malnutrition, eating disorders, nervous disorders.

Oral illnesses affecting teeth, mouth, jawbone.
Due to the lack of health insurance, to self-
administered anaesthetization, lack of self-care or injuries, addressing any inflammations of this
area was regularly delayed. This entailed the danger of abscesses, pus, which again put more
strain on the entire body.

Skin eczema. Lack of hygiene by the punters, the venues, and also psychological revulsion that seeks its expression in eczema.
Pain. Basically always and everywhere. Headaches. Through battering, tenseness, especially the
cramping up of the shoulders and jaws through unendingly repeated oral practices (“blow jobs”).

(hours of the heavy weight of the punters and their violent thrusts).
“Unclear abdominal pains”, unclear, because the pain cannot be located in any specific organ or
trigger, but is excruciating enough to consider surgery. Psychosomatic is what this is called then.
Sleeping disorders. No regular times for sleeping due to having to be available at any times.
Sleeping in the same bed where the meeting with the punter has taken place before, lack of a
day/night rhythm with lack of daylight, always artificial light, noise. In exchange: sleeping pills.
Substance abuse. Nicotine, alcohol, drugs, medication. No way to go through the days in other ways.

Summarising this I want to make clear that the above comprises my work experiences as a
gynaecologist at this counselling centre in Hamburg and lays no claim to statistic significance.

I am however certain that the problems described here have not changed in any way in the various areas of prostitution nor following the two new laws in the years since. How could they?
The system of prostitution is contemptuous of women and of humanity, built on exploitation and cruelty, and it is mostly about exertion of power by men and about a maximum of profits.
Only the abolishment of this system can be the solution!
Liane Bissinger, gynaecologist

VitaminX · 07/04/2023 16:00

Very powerful post. Absolutely right, there is no justification for further punishment of prostituted women (or indeed prostituted men). Any more than you would prosecute a victim of modern slavery.

Johns/punters, on the other hand, are a menace to society and should be locked up.

CompleteGinasaur · 07/04/2023 16:09

Kanaloa · 05/12/2022 23:46

Or laws being reformed so the person seeking to pay for sex is the one treated harshly rather than the person forced into prostitution.

Apologies if you already know about them, Kanaloa, but there is a group which campaigns for precisely this - Nordic Model Now.

MrsTerryPratchett · 07/04/2023 16:52

VitaminX · 07/04/2023 12:41

As long as men and women have been alive, it's existed.

Well, so have most forms of exploitation, violence and abuse. These things will never be fully eliminated but that's no reason to just throw in the towel and make it easier for the abusers.

It's Ankh Morpork with the Thieves Guild and the Assassins Guild.

"If there's crime, it might as well be organised."

Kanaloa · 07/04/2023 17:20

CompleteGinasaur · 07/04/2023 16:09

Apologies if you already know about them, Kanaloa, but there is a group which campaigns for precisely this - Nordic Model Now.

I didn’t know about them at all. Must look them up and see what it’s all about! Personally I’ve always thought it’s the only way.

MerlinsLostMarbles · 11/04/2023 12:27

CompleteGinasaur · 07/04/2023 16:09

Apologies if you already know about them, Kanaloa, but there is a group which campaigns for precisely this - Nordic Model Now.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/04/08/man-appears-in-court-charged-with-murder-of-geila-ibram-in-limerick/

A prostitute was murdered a week ago in the Republic of Ireland which has the "Nordic Model".

potniatheron · 11/04/2023 12:50

Karl Marx was very clear in his writings that prostitution is a tool of capitalist oppression.

Whittome needs to swot up on the witterings of her hero.

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