Jigsaw PSHE resources

[HHH3]

Just looking through DS2’s primary school website at their PSHE policies. They are using the Jigsaw PSHE resources.

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience about these. It’s only really an overview so I can’t tell exactly how the LGBT+ stuff is taught.

For info, DS2 is autistic so he’s likely to take things very literally.

I asked our primary school for the full jigsaw curriculum and approach to LGBT. I went through it v carefully. It was fine, and they expressly stated they don’t do the ‘born in the wrong body’ shite.

drapers-infants.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/document/How-does-Jigsaw-approach-gender-identity-Copy-1.pdf?t=1623328855?ts=1624699884

My yr6 class did the Roberta Cowell lesson last week, our PHSE lead (who is also a yr6 teacher) chose to do that lesson over the Caitlyn Jenner/Laverne Cox due to the WW2 connection, as its our topic of the term.
She read the excerpts from the wiki page and biography to the children, no mention of being born in the wrong body, just explained that Roberta was born male and known as Robert and discussed how after the war/marriage/children etc Roberta wasn't comfortable in her body as a male and the choice to become female was explored and done.
It wasn't pushed and was explained as this is what they wanted to do. Conversation focused more on her accomplishments as a race car driver and fighter jet pilot, due to the relevance to what they are learning.
The only real question that was related to gender/sex was "do you need to change your name?"

Do you know how the teacher answered the question about name change?

Yes, she said it's not a necessity, but since some people feel they can no longer relate to the name they were given at birth they will change it, others won't because their name is part of their history and identity, some will, like Roberta did, go for a female version of their own name.

I found it quite a well balanced answer, and in reflection still do.

Original not own.

I still find the fact that Jigsaw consider children to be sexual beings at age 5/6 to be deeply concerning. Children do not have a sexual orientation at such a young age as they aren't interested in sex (and saying they are in a red flag) and gender identity is a very contested belief, unproven by science and therefore not 'robust facts'. It's ridiculous to assume that all people - adult or child - have one (or that a lack of one makes you 'c*s', not a word Jigsaw use, but who says we have a gender identity?).

The Cowell lesson implies this person was "born in the wrong body", even if those exact words are not used. How else can it be explained as to why this person wanted to change the body in the first place?

The sporting achievements this person had were not of a female achievements so the races Cowell won were not the first of its kind for a woman, it is not possible to disconnect the race wins from the lie that this person was female as compared to men in similar male competitions this person would not have won.

I would not dismiss these lessons as acceptable or fine because the message the children leave with is the same.

The teachers may not be showing images of the surgery this person had performed on their body (after various lies) as that would be highly inappropriate but the idea that this person 'became' female as their name was changed the name, clothes etc is what very young, impressionable children will understand.

It is a lie.

I would like to know if there is a " script" for this lesson that teachers either follow to the letter or just pick and choose from. I'm trying to figure out if my son's teacher went completely " off piste" with his interpretation.

Roberta Cowell was never a man. The material being taught is incorrect. Roberta Cowell had XX chromosomes and this was medically certified. There are a number of other factual inaccuracies and more worryingly omissions in the jigsaw material. It has now been officially withdrawn by Jigsaw too

@Quisto there is a script it’s provided by jigsaw the third party provider of these lesson plans. There words to
follow and bracketed words meant for teachers notes. Throughout the material there is instruction for teachers to “use their discretion”. This means absolutely that the detail would then be dictated by the teachers views and moral standards. Which would be quite variable and because of the culture of teachers generally lean to the liberal side

That's very interesting @21stCenturyProblems . I thought xx males were always infertile, even though they usually have normal male genitalia. I have read that Roberta fathered two children before their transition.

Wait what?

Cowell was a man with a DSD condition, or a woman who wanted to be a man?
A mother who used the label of father?

I thought Robert was male but wanted to be viewed and compete as a female.

I'm thoroughly confused.

I understood, and the wiki page confirms, (presumably this is the same used by the teacher of @SuperlativeOxymoron 's y6 class - assuming it hasn't been edited recently) that Cowell claimed to have an "intersex" condition after an orchiechtomy which was performed by 'trans man' surgeon and friend Michael Dillon.

It was the "intersex" condition claim that lead to the birth certificate change. The surgery was illegal at the time, the surgeon who did a "vaginoplasty" on Cowell had done the "phalloplasty" operation on Dillon which, at the time, was experimental and only done on dead bodies.

This is all according to Wiki anyway, which is hardly a trusted resource and none of the above is a ringing endorsement of Cowell's story. I'm glad it was pulled but what replaces it is not any better IMO.

I've just found a thread on Twitter about Roberta. ( Easy to Google and find). I also discovered that the first teaching resource about Roberta was produced by Stonewall. Roberta has some interesting views on XY men transitioning in the last interview they gave in 1972.

So glad to find this thread, I started the conversation with DDs (Y5) school, I have been told they have no intention in covering gender identity, but if a child brings it up they will discuss it age appropriately with them.
They have told me they use Jigsaw and HT sent me an overview on the PSHE program, but as expected it doesn't really tell you what is being taught.
They did do an assembly on stereotypes and I'm quite certain the head knows what a women is, I'm a bit concerned re the secrets part as I do know at the start of term they had a secret box for questions the children wanted to keep private, they were discussing babies and periods, Does this sound normal? It concerned me these questions are seen as taboo, and not something normal that could be discussed in the class.

Roberta states this in her interview in the Sunday Times on 12th March 1978. You’d really have had to take it up with her….. unfortunately she is now deceased…

@purpleboy in the jigsaw year 2 material they have a lesson that covers “good secrets” and “bad secrets”. We couldn’t get a straight answer when we asked them how they define each.

We’ve just come back from a school meeting where they have allowed us to see the material on the screen. There wasn’t enough time to go through it in the detail we want. But there are LOTS of concerns we have after seeing it. We are going back to view again and take notes. There is one lesson that has the characters Billy, Bella and ‘B’. B doesn’t have a gender and the question: “do we have to have a gender?” is posed to 6 years olds. They do this whilst stood in a circle deep breathing and using chimes to settle their emotions whilst learning. The material is weird and there are lots of teacher only notes, which talks about how to handle questions that arise from the children about transgender. But suggests how to handle this should be a matter of teacher discretion.

@Quisto stonewall is an organisation who
lobby the government about LGBTQ issues. Some of their views about transgenderism in society are quite extreme.

Thanks 21st. This sounds very concerning. I'd really appreciate and update when you see them again if you don't mind?

I feel like I'm being fobbed off, what they are saying seems ok but it's so vague it's impossible to know how things will get taught, I gather next year is when they might talk about it and so worth me finding out which teacher is taking the lesson and seeing if I can have a meeting with them so see if I can figure out what will be taught, or even their own views as I do feel that will influence the way the conversation goes. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to do that but I will certainly ask.

@21stCenturyProblems I know exactly who Stonewall are and what they do. Which is why any learning resource from them is very concerning.

You are able to ask to see lesson plans but this would probably have to be done with the teacher in the school as they can't send materials out just in case they are copied and sold on. Unlikely I would say but these external companies have their teaching and training materials as company assets so it's reasonable not to expect a copy sent on email but you are absolutely able and allowed to see the actual lesson plans.

You will find some jigsaw materials have been shared on MN and as others have mentioned, on accessible websites, but I would recommend organising a meeting with the school as you can go through the lesson plans with the teacher and ask which bits they will plan to use and see for yourself what you are comfortable/uncomfortable with.

Good to read your update here @21stCenturyProblems - that set up does sound concerning, like some kind of meditation whilst taking about 'gender'.

I also raised the question of secrets as a safeguarding issue and actually got some good reassurance from the school on this.

I also saw the Bill/Bella/B lesson and felt this was gaslighting, leading and manipulative. I was quite disgusted actually as it relied heavily on stereotypes around toys and broken down at an in-person discussion it veered into talking about same sex attraction, it was very homophobic but thankfully the school saw what was going on and made a change.

Thanks ohholy I will certainly be going back in for more info. I will update the thread should I have any success.

Hi All,

I’m planning on putting a summary of the lessons I saw together and posting it on here. I’ll be doing it anyway because we agreed with the school that because we cannot legally withdraw DS, and as a containment to protect him from this material. We will come in and see the material for the next year on screen. We will then teach him at home to supplement this jigsaw nonsense. We will do this whilst we take legal advice surrounding full disclosure of copies of the material and investigate withdrawal possibility. I don’t agree that for commercial reasons it’s reasonable to hold back the material from parents. I think that’s an infringement of our rights.

I hope it can be of use to others.

I'm very much a live and let live type of person but don’t ram your ideas down my throat, don’t expect me to agree with you all the time and definitely don’t tell me how to raise my child or stop me from seeing what you are putting in his head. Especially when some
of it is tripe with deep breathing and bells….

@OhHolyJesus im currently knocking a hole in my living room wall so I can get some respite from thinking about it! Some of the teachings were very benign, some were inappropriate and a lot of what the teachers said were totally incongruent. Example, they said whenever the jigsaw lessons give rise to ‘inappropriate’ questions teachers are taught to field them
with, ‘this is not an appropriate questions for this lesson, you should go home and ask your parents about this one”. I asked her how that approach stacked up with the fact that we can’t have copies of the material. And how we would be able to then answer the difficult questions that were suddenly, “too hard for school and too hard for jigsaw “. But she just looked at me blankly….