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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times article on academia

186 replies

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 15/09/2022 11:37

www.timeshighereducation.com/depth/researchers-are-wounded-academias-gender-wars

Does anyone have a share token?

OP posts:
academicsock · 16/09/2022 20:10

Sorry, that should say that feminist theory is seen as problematic. 'Problematic', with air quotes.

TheBiologyStupid · 16/09/2022 20:50

Here's an archived copy for those who don't want to register for the free access: web.archive.org/web/20220915220129/www.timeshighereducation.com/depth/researchers-are-wounded-academias-gender-wars

TheBiologyStupid · 16/09/2022 21:03

Helleofabore · 15/09/2022 17:30

What a very brave article. Thank you Laura Favaro.

Absolutely - kudos!

TheBiologyStupid · 16/09/2022 21:09

Chrysanthemum5 · 16/09/2022 08:26

@acfree123 those disciplines may be free of this nonsense in some places but not at all. I've heard some unbelievable rubbish in physics for instance

Yup, particularly in the US where "black body" (in the thermal equilibrium sense) is now "problematic". FFS.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/09/2022 21:20

ImNotAnExpert · 16/09/2022 20:03

'Our sanctioned victim status shields privileged white women from accountability in interpersonal interactions and in the political sphere.'
...
'while privileged white feminists deny the relationship between the personal and the political in response to critique, in our own theory and politics this relationship (and in particular, our own personal experience or that of women like us) takes centre stage. This is more than just hypocrisy; it is white supremacy.'
...
'bourgeois white women’s tears are the ultimate symbol of femininity, evoking the damsel in distress and the mourning, lamenting women of myth'
...
'Political whiteness involves a will to power: in the case of bourgeois white women, this was and is often achieved through performances of powerlessness. We exist at the intersections of capitalism, white supremacy and heteropatriarchy, with little control over the means of production (Lugones, 2008: 15) but with raced and classed dominance that requires feminine submission. Like Penelope in Homer’s Odyssey, we fling ourselves on the floor and cry'

All from the article linked above - 'white tears, white rage'

Did a white woman write that to gain power by performing submission?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/09/2022 21:29

You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment.

MangyInseam · 17/09/2022 00:47

TheKeatingFive · 16/09/2022 17:02

What is the ultimate reason for the incredible power the activists in this movement have, for the level of aggression they are allowed to show, and for the way otherwise smart people seem to lose their ability to think critically on this one issue?

I'm thinking maybe we should start a thread to discuss this.

This is the real question I think.

It's not just about gender ideology. It's been going on for some time, and it's about a number of different types of activism.

While it's worth thinking about why gender ideology in particular seems to have been the most virulent or strongly enforced, I don't think the answer for the "why" will be found by looking at just gender ideology. It will be - why have some kinds of activism begun to have this kind of behaviour and power in institutions.

BettyFilous · 17/09/2022 06:25

Signalbox · 16/09/2022 12:55

I'm struggling to find it because I'm on a Twitter break and can't scroll down without being forced to log back in. Never mind not reading it will just have to be part of my detox! :D

I don’t have a Twitter account. When the log in/register pop up appears I click to log in. Once the log in page appear you can click on the X button to close and resume reading.

Kellie45 · 17/09/2022 07:07

academicsock · 16/09/2022 20:08

I am a Humanities academic, and perhaps I can shed a bit of light on this. I think for many of my colleagues who have wholeheartedly embraced this belief system, it comes from a place of care for students. They are the ones who would take up, officially or otherwise, roles like 'Student Support Officer', or volunteer for student induction events, or mentoring etc, and would vocally be 'student-centric' in terms of being approachable and kind and flexible etc. They would take on a lot of pastoral care of students, and so are a 'magnet' for students who need it, basically. The last decade has seen a 300% increase in students requesting disability support for mental health issues in my uni (not a typo), and a similar increase (though smaller numbers) of students who identify as trans or non-binary. Many of these colleagues see pronouns etc as caring for students in crisis - being kind, basically. And then, that becomes reinforced by university diversity and equality guidelines which emphasise the 'T' over pretty much everything else, because those guidelines are basically written by pressure groups who come in to 'advise' us.

Most of these colleagues are lovely people, feminist women for the most part, many of whom I count as my friends. But they don't see, or are kind of oblivious to, the ways in which the prioritisation of the 'T' impacts on other students - female students in particular, who - as Luftballoons points out - are not getting to properly engage with 'old-school' feminist theory, because it is problematic. One colleague recently commented that she couldn't use her own book in teaching anymore because she used so much 'problematic' French feminism in it, but expressed regret about it - somewhat secretly, and after a bit of wine - as she still believed quite strongly in that theory.

I no longer teach any feminist theory, and stay away from any 'representation of women' courses. You may say that is cowardly, and perhaps it is, but I had a very bad experience a few years ago when I was accused of being transphobic in a literary theory class for assigning an essay by Julia Kristeva, who is considered transphobic now because her theory is about the female body. My lack of pronouns in my Twitter bio was mentioned by a student in the discussion about the essay as 'harmful'.

BTW, I've changed username for this post, because based on my post history, it probably wouldn't be hard for someone so inclined to figure out who I am, and yes, I am worried that my career would be damaged if I was 'outed' as GC.

The whole problem is of course that universities are supposed to be places which investigate truth and disgust truth. These things of course are not truth which is why they are not being investigated by rational discussion and are being promoted by fear and intimidation. Apparently it is students who need to be in the so-called ‘safe spaces’ and not be exposed to discussion or they are going to commit suicide. Recently a journalist went in to do a talk at a University and discussed some of these points in his talk and the students demonstrated, calling for the resignation of the professor who had invited him and saying they needed ‘safe spaces’. One student said she was ‘shaking with fear’ during his talk. Now with someone who has been literally holed up in Africa during the middle of a coup in a Civil War and has been airlifted in a Red Cross plane because the roads were too dangerous and we might get shot then to be ‘shaking with fear’ in a university talk and request a ‘safe space’ appears to me that you need some psychiatric help not a university. But it is this social blackmail that is shutting debate down plus threats to staff. University should be a place of debate not safe spaces where students can go on with their preconceived ideas unchallenged, however uncomfortable it may be to have them challenged. I know where I stand on issues because I have had my beliefs challenged and the worked through the challenges. People might not agree with me but I can put up a pretty robust defence of them. One of the reasons was I had to at university. To me it’s tragic that places we should be above all places of three discussion and debate have now turned into these cocoons of self justifying narrowness. Frankly I would not want my kids to go there and have their minds so limited

Kellie45 · 17/09/2022 07:14

Kellie45 · 17/09/2022 07:07

The whole problem is of course that universities are supposed to be places which investigate truth and disgust truth. These things of course are not truth which is why they are not being investigated by rational discussion and are being promoted by fear and intimidation. Apparently it is students who need to be in the so-called ‘safe spaces’ and not be exposed to discussion or they are going to commit suicide. Recently a journalist went in to do a talk at a University and discussed some of these points in his talk and the students demonstrated, calling for the resignation of the professor who had invited him and saying they needed ‘safe spaces’. One student said she was ‘shaking with fear’ during his talk. Now with someone who has been literally holed up in Africa during the middle of a coup in a Civil War and has been airlifted in a Red Cross plane because the roads were too dangerous and we might get shot then to be ‘shaking with fear’ in a university talk and request a ‘safe space’ appears to me that you need some psychiatric help not a university. But it is this social blackmail that is shutting debate down plus threats to staff. University should be a place of debate not safe spaces where students can go on with their preconceived ideas unchallenged, however uncomfortable it may be to have them challenged. I know where I stand on issues because I have had my beliefs challenged and the worked through the challenges. People might not agree with me but I can put up a pretty robust defence of them. One of the reasons was I had to at university. To me it’s tragic that places we should be above all places of three discussion and debate have now turned into these cocoons of self justifying narrowness. Frankly I would not want my kids to go there and have their minds so limited

Sorry the software printed it wrong so I repost:

The whole problem is of course that universities are supposed to be places which investigate truth and discuss truth. These things of course (ie trans theory, etc) are not truth which is why they are not being investigated by rational discussion and are being promoted by fear and intimidation. Apparently we are also being blackmailed by students who need to be in the so-called ‘safe spaces’ and not be exposed to discussion or they are going to ‘commit suicide’. Recently a journalist went in to do a talk at a University and discussed some of these points on gender theory in his talk and the students demonstrated, calling for the resignation of the professor who had invited him and saying they needed ‘safe spaces’. One student said she was ‘shaking with fear’ during his talk. Now as someone who has been literally holed up in Africa during the middle of a coup in a Civil War and has had to be been airlifted in a Red Cross plane because the roads were too dangerous and we might get shot, then to be ‘shaking with fear’ because of a university talk and request a ‘safe space’ appears to me that you need some psychiatric help not a university. But it is this social blackmail that is shutting debate down - plus threats to staff. University should be a place of debate not ‘safe spaces’ where students can go on with their preconceived ideas unchallenged, however uncomfortable it may be to have them challenged. I know where I stand on issues because I have had my beliefs challenged and then worked through the challenges. People might not agree with me but I can put up a pretty robust defence of them. One of the reasons was I had to do that at university. To me it’s tragic that places which should be above all places of free discussion and debate have now turned into these cocoons of self justifying narrowness. Frankly they are in many cases limiting not expanding the minds of our kids.

Signalbox · 17/09/2022 08:07

BettyFilous · 17/09/2022 06:25

I don’t have a Twitter account. When the log in/register pop up appears I click to log in. Once the log in page appear you can click on the X button to close and resume reading.

Oh thanks that's a helpful tip

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 17/09/2022 10:07

Kellie45 Since the new software update, MN doesn't preserve paragraph breaks if you copy and paste what you've typed so far into the Mumsnet message window. Which is terrible for those of us who have learnt to c&p to avoid losing long posts.

The work-around for me, is to

  1. c&p what I've written into my email or text program,
  2. check the paragraph breaks show there,
  3. c&p from that program anew into MN
  4. check message preview and see if the breaks are showing.
  5. if they are not, I repeat steps 1-4 until they do.
lifelongaway · 17/09/2022 11:22

SudocremOnEverything · 16/09/2022 16:57

I think it might all have something to do with that point where loads of humanities and social science scholars be some obsessed with ‘the political’ over everything else. Then started drifting towards insisting that activism and taking political stands were the purpose of what they were doing.

Meanwhile the idea that they might be trying to understand - or even that there is value in standing back and not taking a stance so you can try to look at things from a range of different perspectives - fell by the wayside.

So now actually having any idea clear definition or understanding of what is going on is viewed as a threat to the political position of affirming people’s chosen gender identity. It would be dreadful if academics questioned anything or attempted to think critically because the political position and the activism are all that matter.

I agree with this. I could see this starting back in the early 2000's when I was doing an MSc. You could see it amongst the Phd and MSc students (humanities, obviously) - the idea that they were activists, attempts to be objective in your research were sneered at. Science was sneered at in general. Yes. This.

lifelongaway · 17/09/2022 11:28

Did a white woman write that to gain power by performing submission?

Brilliantly insightful comment! Grin

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:32

NC as I've been ranting on twatter.

Excellent article and I'm so glad it's in the times higher.

Phipps is unbelievable.

Im NOT and academic and challenged her a while back over the claims she made that terfs are racist and middle class. I provided counter arguments made by a black American academic that the tra movement is racist. And the academic has spoken widely about her reasoning, interviews etc can be found.

Phipps just blocked me.

And now she's making out she's a victim due to this research, grovelling on twitter to the TRAs.

I'm ashamed to say Newcastle was my university.

lifelongaway · 17/09/2022 11:33

I was accused of being transphobic in a literary theory class for assigning an essay by Julia Kristeva, who is considered transphobic now because her theory is about the female body

Its not just shocking that anyone would make this accusation, but its utterly shocking that this could be given any seriousness. Whoever received this complaint should openly laugh and dismiss it firmly. Its ridiculous, misogynistic to its core. Its awful.

lifelongaway · 17/09/2022 11:35

I provided counter arguments made by a black American academic that the tra movement is racist. And the academic has spoken widely about her reasoning, interviews etc can be found

I would be interested in reading this if you could name her or link to articles?

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:37

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel I missed that comment, absolute pure gold ⭐️!

That was the article I challenged as being the most privileged, historically innaccurate, misogynistic and racist thing I've read all year. Supporting evidence/ argument by Dr FV:

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:39

Life, see link below and this one, which mners have shared before. There was a thread somewhere. It's a long watch so one you need to devote some time to.

Previous one is shorter.

I am afraid I don't have any links to her writing.

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:40

Sorry this one

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:40

Bollocks!

THIS one!

ImNotAnExpert · 17/09/2022 12:17

FWIW I found Phipps' essay on 'white tears' callous at the time, and given the context (rape survivors) actually verging on grotesque.

I wouldn't hold her words against her, but I think she should recognise how that essay impacted on rape survivors.

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 12:27

She's an echo chamber.

lifelongaway · 17/09/2022 12:39

@NEWarONwomen

Thank you! : )

SudocremOnEverything · 17/09/2022 12:41

NEWarONwomen · 17/09/2022 11:39

Life, see link below and this one, which mners have shared before. There was a thread somewhere. It's a long watch so one you need to devote some time to.

Previous one is shorter.

I am afraid I don't have any links to her writing.

The text of that is here: https://www.womenarehuman.com/american-racism-in-the-colonization-of-womanhood/