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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

HardTalk - Shona Fay

65 replies

Treaclemine · 10/08/2022 16:31

My friend picked this up last night, and I've been waiting for comments.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b006mg2m/hardtalk

She does seem the acceptable face of trans, and reasonable, but I spotted a couple of missed points. The interviewer mentioned problems about prisons, but there was no answer to that.
The other was her suggestion that there are now so many more girls seeking transition because they can see it is possible. But that if this were so, there would be strings of middle aged and older women wanting to transition as well, and that was not pursued.
She wants all women, our sort and her sort, to act together to improve women's status.

I'd be interested to know what others think.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2022 10:29

One man’s therapeutic needs taking precedence over the right to privacy of thousands and thousands of girls – show me a better example of ‘male privilege’.'

Bingo.

Yes, I don't think talking about privilege is Brendan's comfortable position, but he really gets it, more than most "male feminists" in fact, all those chats with women like Meghan Murphy must have paid off.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 25/08/2022 10:32

How dare the sales girl oppress him like that. He tweeted about this terrible act of ‘transphobia’ and said to Topshop: ‘Who made you in charge of deciding who is woman enough to use your changing room?’ There was a media storm and Topshop caved – it said all its changing rooms would be ‘gender-neutral’ from now on.

This changing room incident and its outcome brought me up quite hard because of its similarity to this manifesto item from 1972.

Gay Liberation Front journal - Come Together - issue 11: Lesbians Come Together. It's from a piece by the GLF Transvestite, Transsexual and Drag Queen group (NB: yes, although this was a special issue about lesbians, this was printed as a submission. PS: available at archive org site):

A more central question is how to relate to other women. When we talk about our hopes and fantasies, it becomes apparent that what we want above all is to be accepted as women, primarily by other women. But will we achieve this by looking for ways in which we share experience with regular women or by developing a unique transvestite consciousness?

Sometimes the second approach seems real militant and proud, at other times it seems a cop-out, accepting the prejudiced view that we're not women, that we're some freaky third sex (or fourth or fifth?). Possibly we can find some light by considering the situation of black women and gay women, who develop black pride and gay pride, but still explore their feelings as women. Think how much more inspiring and beautiful the women's revolution will be when it joyously includes all women. Think of a Holloway demo with transvestite, transsexual and drag-queen women, gay women and heterosexual women, black, yellow, brown and white women, working women, housewives and career women. Certainly, whatever course we take as transvestites, transsexuals and drag queens, we must first destroy the trap wherein regular women set up standards by which they accept or reject us.

50 years later, look at that last line again.The intention was always to take away women's right to say, "No". And companies, organisations, entire social and political systems, even the police are supporting them in removing women's "No".

Datun · 25/08/2022 10:33

Rubidium · 25/08/2022 09:14

Brendan O’Neill has now reviewed Travis Alabanza’s new book, 'None of the Above: Reflections on Life Beyond the Binary':

www.spiked-online.com/2022/08/21/the-dangerous-narcissism-of-the-trans-lobby/

Well worth reading.

Bloody hell. Is Brendan O'Neill a Mumsnetter!

Datun · 25/08/2022 10:40

The minor but absolutely pivotal point of trans ideology which so pisses me off, is all these people (Including Alabanza) saying they're breaking out the gender binary.

No they're fucking not. Breaking out of the gender binary would have Travis Alabanza dressing like that as a man.

Breaking out of the binary of what Alabanza thinks it means to be a man. But that doesn't happen. No binary is broken.

Instead of that, Alabanza invents a whole new category, to accommodate all this newfound sartorial liberation.

And, presentation wise, completely gender conforms to this new category.

And yes, not to mention all the dominating, intimidating, bullying behaviour, which is hardly gender 'nonconforming' to a male.

You're not breaking out of Jack shit, mate

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2022 10:56

Also, people in general will make comments about anyone who looks like a state. There is an entire thread today about women wearing those tiktok bum leggings in public. Travis is being treated equally.

Datun · 25/08/2022 11:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2022 10:56

Also, people in general will make comments about anyone who looks like a state. There is an entire thread today about women wearing those tiktok bum leggings in public. Travis is being treated equally.

Yes, nobody believes that Alabanza isn't wearing that to attract attention. I think it was Halloween a few years ago, where Alabanza said they wanted to get dressed up as a 15-year-old girl, wasn't it? Very explicitly saying 15, not just a teenager. (Or was that their mate, Alok, who said little girls are devious and kinky.)

Do they seriously expect us to believe they walk around at home like that? Of course not. The entire purpose is to attract attention. And then go off on a liberating self righteous rant when it's not the sort of attention they demand.

WomaninBoots · 25/08/2022 12:27

Datun · 25/08/2022 10:40

The minor but absolutely pivotal point of trans ideology which so pisses me off, is all these people (Including Alabanza) saying they're breaking out the gender binary.

No they're fucking not. Breaking out of the gender binary would have Travis Alabanza dressing like that as a man.

Breaking out of the binary of what Alabanza thinks it means to be a man. But that doesn't happen. No binary is broken.

Instead of that, Alabanza invents a whole new category, to accommodate all this newfound sartorial liberation.

And, presentation wise, completely gender conforms to this new category.

And yes, not to mention all the dominating, intimidating, bullying behaviour, which is hardly gender 'nonconforming' to a male.

You're not breaking out of Jack shit, mate

THIS!! 100%. Infuriating.

Can I get "You're breaking out of jack shit, mate" onna T-shirt please?

I've taken a looooooong break from worrying about any of this (and anything else). Fuck the world I said, and retreated. Now I'm starting to think about it again and... yes, I'm still raging.

I'm currently trying to figure out what the playing field looks like now and trying to catch up. Wasn't going to post yet but this just rings so true I had to comment.

ArabellaScott · 25/08/2022 13:11

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2022 10:29

One man’s therapeutic needs taking precedence over the right to privacy of thousands and thousands of girls – show me a better example of ‘male privilege’.'

Bingo.

Yes, I don't think talking about privilege is Brendan's comfortable position, but he really gets it, more than most "male feminists" in fact, all those chats with women like Meghan Murphy must have paid off.

It has been a small consolation in this whole affair to see some men who were previously strongly anti feminist at last concede that 'gender' issues have shone a light on society's baked in misogyny.

Who knows, in the long run it may even benefit women - provide us with more robust protections with a greater understanding of the issues facing us and the mechanisms by which women are oppressed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/08/2022 16:15

Alabanza said they wanted to get dressed up as a 15-year-old girl, wasn't it?

It was a "15 year old yt girl" which people took to mean "white girl" as that is a common way to write it online until Alabanza clarified that it was "YouTube girl". Right.

daringdoris · 25/08/2022 16:54

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/w3ct32lr

The radio version for anyone who can't access iplayer.

I've just listened to the Kathleen Stock one and didn't find the interviewer particularly sympathatic - but perhaps that's his style. I'll listen to this one and compare!

Datun · 25/08/2022 17:04

It has been a small consolation in this whole affair to see some men who were previously strongly anti feminist at last concede that 'gender' issues have shone a light on society's baked in misogyny.

Yes, this. I wasn't sure what Brendan O'Neill's attitude was to feminism. I can only find him talking about 'new feminism' being superficial. And I'm sure he's not making a distinction between radical feminism and liberal feminism .

But if he's framing this issue in the context of gaslighting and male privilege, he's bloody got it.

turbonerd · 25/08/2022 17:06

Love the reviews in Spiked! The last one is poignant. When you have experienced psychopaths and narcissists in the wild, you do notice these tendencies in the trans movement. I am glad he wrote it out so explicitly, because I have struggled to formulate it.
thanks.

Datun · 25/08/2022 17:08

WomaninBoots · 25/08/2022 12:27

THIS!! 100%. Infuriating.

Can I get "You're breaking out of jack shit, mate" onna T-shirt please?

I've taken a looooooong break from worrying about any of this (and anything else). Fuck the world I said, and retreated. Now I'm starting to think about it again and... yes, I'm still raging.

I'm currently trying to figure out what the playing field looks like now and trying to catch up. Wasn't going to post yet but this just rings so true I had to comment.

It depends how long you've been out 😁

The playing field, in terms of the misogyny, is still right there. But more people waking up to it.

And a few court cases have clarified things, too.

The tanker, imo, has definitely been turned around. But it's achingly slow.

The government know what's going on, because the Cass report has highlighted it all. And they appear to want to be sensible and protect women's spaces.

I'm just not convinced they know exactly how insidious the issue has become. And of course, they are meeting a lot of resistance from captured organisations.

WomaninBoots · 25/08/2022 23:01

Datun · 25/08/2022 17:08

It depends how long you've been out 😁

The playing field, in terms of the misogyny, is still right there. But more people waking up to it.

And a few court cases have clarified things, too.

The tanker, imo, has definitely been turned around. But it's achingly slow.

The government know what's going on, because the Cass report has highlighted it all. And they appear to want to be sensible and protect women's spaces.

I'm just not convinced they know exactly how insidious the issue has become. And of course, they are meeting a lot of resistance from captured organisations.

It feels like ages and ages but I probably only hid away early this year.

Thanks for the quick summary! A slowly turning tanker is better than a stuck one. I just hope that there's enough of reality left by the time it is heading the right way!

PetalsOnTheBreeze · 26/08/2022 00:16

Blimey. I've saved that article. So pertinent. So many incisive points.

www.spiked-online.com/2022/08/21/the-dangerous-narcissism-of-the-trans-lobby/

It was this one that got me most:

They think we cis plebs are slaves to the gender binary, when in truth it is they who have made themselves slaves to gender ideology.

Gender = star signs, for all meaning.

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