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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya and Robin on "What is a woman?" - Personnel Today

97 replies

Justme56 · 10/05/2022 11:01

www.personneltoday.com/hr/what-is-a-woman-maya-forstater-transgender-rights/

www.personneltoday.com/hr/what-is-a-woman-robin-moira-white-transgender-rights/

An interesting read!

OP posts:
JustSpeculation · 10/04/2023 12:27

But:The classicalist has no appreciation of what things actually mean.

The opposite! I want to understand what the romantics are saying by trying to ascertain what they mean. But the responses are, essentially, 'please don't ask'.

I was putting words into the romantics' mouth here....and I think the answer (when given in good faith, which I think is not often) is more "please don't prioritise your dead logic over our lived experience" rather than "don't ask".

JustSpeculation · 10/04/2023 12:29

Thelnebriati · 10/04/2023 12:22

But we can either continuing blugeoning each other, or we can bridge the gap. How?

But this isn't a situation where a bridge style of compromise (meet in the middle) will work. Its a situation where that type of compromise will completely remove the rights of one group. A third space type of compromise would work for women, but TRA's have rejected it.

Look at Taoism; we are talking about competing opposites that cause destruction. Not balancing opposites.

True. But does that mean we should give up trying to get it to work?

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 12:36

It is in a nutshell two opposing views of:

women: we want answers that work for everyone, which means accepting that some females need female only spaces alongside accessible ones.

activitists: the only acceptable answer is that females lose all sex based definition that makes them a group, ever, that does not include males. They either use mixed sex spaces or are excluded from society.

The EHRC is suggesting in their letter that the first is the only acceptable solution because equality for all is the goal. Not validation for males at the expense of females. Those males are never going to agree it's a good idea. In the same way that muggers are very going to agree that they don't have a right to your wallet if they want it and deserve it, and you deserved to get punched because if you'd just handed it over when they said, they wouldn't have had to hit you.

Law is there to protect the weak from the strong, the reasonable from the unreasonable.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 12:40

But we can either continuing blugeoning each other, or we can bridge the gap. How?

Dead simple.

Accept that sex and "gender" both exist but are totally different things. Which they clearly are because trans people exist!

Keep all the pre-existing single sex stuff as single sex to support female people but continue the social journey of Feminism to a point where hopefully far less of them are needed. Should be non-controversial once sex and gender are understood to be different.

In parallel, start exploring "gender" as a different but also valid type of social grouping based on a romantic knowledge of self and recognition of a sameness in others. Understand that the linking of "gender" to sex, or man/womanhood, or indeed any binary was an error of understanding, grasping something new, meaningful by trying to make sense of it in existing terms rather than seeing it for what is is. Begin a new social journey of gender to understand the value, support and opportunities society can create by looking at people through this new lens of similar personalities.

We'd all have a sex, but also identify with/as as many genders as we find meaningful. Groups of people who feel somehow "the same" coming together to create their own social, possibly even physical, spaces where they have the support and recognition to grow and thrive, and really fulfil their own potential.

I've said this before, but I see the emerging identities around neurodiversity (especially self defined), introversion and so on as exactly this. To me the "sameness" currently being defined as genders, and indeed the identities/cultures forming around selfdefined "queer" sexual expressions seem to be doing something very similar.

Dead simple, really exciting! But only possible if the genderists are prepared to get on board.

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 13:49

... I'd be vaguely interested in exploring likes-cats-books-outdoors-baking gender as a group and facilities provided accordingly. Perhaps a library cafe with cakes in a forest.

But in all honesty I am not sure at all that I have any similar personality traits or self expression in common with a male person enacting stereotypes of womanhood. Or that a group for that would exist that was not largely about female people providing service to meet those male people's needs rather than participating as equals. Many who have been part of a style group or hobby group have seen this in action.

It's rather like wishing to have access to groups for female homosexuals with that characteristic in common, rather than a group where male people are trying to convince female people that homosexuality is sexual racism. It might be very worthy, but it isn't in any way enjoyable and fills me with an urgent desire to go home immediately because my goldfish's hair needs washing.

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 14:01

FlirtsWithRhinos · 10/04/2023 12:40

But we can either continuing blugeoning each other, or we can bridge the gap. How?

Dead simple.

Accept that sex and "gender" both exist but are totally different things. Which they clearly are because trans people exist!

Keep all the pre-existing single sex stuff as single sex to support female people but continue the social journey of Feminism to a point where hopefully far less of them are needed. Should be non-controversial once sex and gender are understood to be different.

In parallel, start exploring "gender" as a different but also valid type of social grouping based on a romantic knowledge of self and recognition of a sameness in others. Understand that the linking of "gender" to sex, or man/womanhood, or indeed any binary was an error of understanding, grasping something new, meaningful by trying to make sense of it in existing terms rather than seeing it for what is is. Begin a new social journey of gender to understand the value, support and opportunities society can create by looking at people through this new lens of similar personalities.

We'd all have a sex, but also identify with/as as many genders as we find meaningful. Groups of people who feel somehow "the same" coming together to create their own social, possibly even physical, spaces where they have the support and recognition to grow and thrive, and really fulfil their own potential.

I've said this before, but I see the emerging identities around neurodiversity (especially self defined), introversion and so on as exactly this. To me the "sameness" currently being defined as genders, and indeed the identities/cultures forming around selfdefined "queer" sexual expressions seem to be doing something very similar.

Dead simple, really exciting! But only possible if the genderists are prepared to get on board.

Yes this is what women have been asking for for a long time. TRAs insult, assault and belittle women for saying this though. I don't care if people want to see themselves as having a gender identity which means they must wear dresses and make up even if that offends the conventions of their particular social groupings. Men can call themselves 'feminine' and do that till the cows come home as far as I'm concerned. Just need them to stay out of women's spaces or to try and pretend that these things are also important to women. They're largely not. I'm sitting in my dungarees with no make up on right now and haven't shaved my legs in 8 weeks. That is all irrelevant to my being a woman though if people said I wasn't that feminine, there would be no offence taken. I don't really care about being feminine - it all seems like a lot of pointless effort to me. But the problem of course is that the men who want to 'be like me' actually need me to be something they can 'be like'. As they can't menstruate, make large gametes, bear a child, develop my sort of pelvis and associated walk (or have society expect that even if something went wrong), they have to make me define womanhood in a different way so that they can access it. Maybe the thing is that they don't want to be seen as wanting to be feminine, they want to be seen as like woman in ways which is not biologically possible. And for some it makes them angry that the mummies in the world (aka woman) can't make everything OK for them and won't throw away their own needs in order to get as close to what they believe is their utopia as possible. I think it shows a possible trauma at an early stage of emotional development though I'd be interested to know what psychotherapists make of that.

EnfysPreseli · 10/04/2023 14:15

Would biological processes also count as "other attributes of sex"? So dysmenorrhoea/menstruation, peri-menopause/menopause, pregnancy, lactation/breastfeeding could all be factors in sex discrimination against women. I appreciate there is a separate protected characteristic for pregnancy discrimination.

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 15:25

“What is a woman?” is the political “gotcha” question of the moment, sometimes paired with its less respectful companion “Can a woman have a penis?”

I think it’s for Robin to demonstrate that this is not a respectful question because for most people it’s a banal and technical one. Stating that something is non respectful in the absence of any acceptance of that or demonstration of the validity of that can appear very much to be rhetoric – an attempt to control the views of the reader through subconscious desires to respect people. What this debate should be taping into is more overt debate with proper explanations and justifications for statements made.
The political answer
The question is used as an anti-trans “dog whistle”. Any perceived failure to answer promptly with equally dog-whistly “adult human female” or “biological female” is seized on with a suggestion that the interviewee “does not know what a woman is” or cannot be trusted to support women’s rights.
Yes and the evidence for this is what has happened to women’s spaces over the last few years. Robin just wafts over this point without addressing it. Why?
The practical answer
For 98% of the population, these questions are banal, even absurd. They have never questioned their gender and probably would not ever think of having a gender identity different from their sex. But for those with gender incongruence the answer is not so simple.
Where is the data suggesting that 98% of people don’t care? I am not sure that only 2% of people care about women’s rights. People should not be able to state this sort of data without references and justification. If there is some study which shows the 98%, people need to be able to examine it’s reliability and validity.
Furthermore, Robin’s language here presupposes that people have a gender identity. For some people (I believe many people but I can’t show data to suggest that because there are forces at play which stop the appropriate questions being asked) it’s not that their gender identity matches their sex, it’s that they don’t have a gender identity at all. They simply call themselves ‘men’ or ‘women’ because they have the body parts which used to be required for such a label.
The medical profession has moved away from regarding gender dysphoria as a medical condition that can be cured or treated, but rather view “gender incongruence” as a feature of the rich tapestry of human experience that needs to be understood and accommodated.

I’m not sure that is the case in the simple way which Robin has described. Has Robin read ‘time to think’? has Robin listened to detransitioners? Robin is making broad generalisations with no justification.
This is just the same as the change more than 40 years ago when variations in sexual orientation were similarly recognised as normal and efforts to alter a person’s sexuality moved to the lunatic fringe. Society is a few years behind with gender identity but the journey leads to the same destination.
Patently a false comparison because the question is not ‘is it OK for men to present in ways which in the 1950s were reserved solely for women’ (which IMHO is OK) but ‘is it OK for a person who has a male biology/ grew up with male privilege/ has been through male puberty to access spaces formerly reserved for women’. The conflation of the two issues appears deliberate as a way of winning hearts and minds – rather than generating critical thinking. One can accept a person’s gender identity whilst continuing to protect women’s spaces.
So the sensible answer is to recognise that “What is a woman?” is a complex question for a small proportion of society. That is the real answer as veteran campaigner, Labour’s Emily Thornberry, demonstrated so well when faced with ‘the question’. To deny the complexity is to deny trans people’s legitimacy, even very existence. And that denial is often the point of asking the rhetorical question.

Complex questions still need answers. If it is too complex for some people to answer, then they will need to accept the answers which those who don’t find it complex at all provide. As Einstein said “if you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough”. I, and many others, do not believe it is acceptable to simultaneously say that something is too complex to explain whilst also relying it on as the foundation stone of a way to divide up limited resources and protect vulnerable groups. From my point of view, Robin would be very welcome to go away and think about it and re-engage in the conversations when Robin can answer the question.

The legal answer
The law in the UK – fortunately for trans people – engages with the complexity. The Gender Recognition Act provided in 2004, under pressure from European jurisprudence, a method for the state to recognise a change of legal sex. From 1999, discrimination on the grounds that someone was undergoing or had undergone a process to reassign their sex was made unlawful. So for 20 years, the legal definitions of sex or gender have accommodated complexity.
Reassigning sex is a concept which itself needs definition. Discrimination on the basis of being trans is clearly unacceptable but that does not mean that males should have access to women’s spaces and Robin has not demonstrated that it does. This is more emotional manipulation at the expense of fact and meaning.
If you believe in a diverse, accepting society, or you are a forward-looking employer wanting your employees to bring their whole selves to work, this is your fight as much as any trans person’s”

This is true though you should be interested in equality to all groups. If you believe in a diverse accepting society you do not believe in silencing of debate and the removal of women’s rights. You, instead, believe in paying attention to the evidence suggesting that female oppression is very real and is rooted in biology.
The accommodation is not complete. Non-binary trans people are poorly served (apart from the advance obtained in 2020 in Taylor v Jaguar Land Rover) and the de-medicalisation of a trans status is only slowly being accepted.

Women are poorly served in society. This is also important.

When, for example, citizens use changing or toilet facilities in a shop, we do not provide our birth certificate or take a chromosome test. Rather we are judged on the outward expression of our sex category, our gender.

Yes and if we were to judge Robin, painful as Robin might find this, we would expect Robin to go to the men’s. This is true for most other high profile TW and many whom I have met in the community. Is Robin suggesting that only TW who pass should be in women’s spaces? If not, then Robin has expressed theirself badly.

That is why the statutory guidance says that service providers should normally accommodate customers according to their gender and why the non-statutory guidance, referring to biological sex, put out for apparently political purposes by the Equality and Human Rights Commission last month is both wrong in law and unworkable in practical application.

Accommodating people according to gender is unworkable as we’d need 100s of categories. Even if we just focus on the key groups – arguable ‘biological female with no gender identity’, ‘biological male with no gender identity’, ‘identifies as woman’, ‘identifies as man’, ‘non-binary’, then we’d need 5 different categories of toilets, changing rooms etc. (in addition to disabled facilities). There is no rationale for putting me in the same facilities as Robin because we have nothing in common.

he law also understands that discrimination is in the eye of the discriminator. So a trans woman perceived as a woman and discriminated against because she is a woman, will be a woman in the sight of the law.
Yes. Not a key part of the argument though given that most TW are clearly male.

And the cases of Croft v Royal Mail Group and A v Chief Constable of West Yorkshire Police demonstrate very clearly that in discrimination law a time will come when an individual is to be accepted in their affirmed gender for discrimination purposes. Section 7 of the Equality Act 2010 refers to ‘physiological and other attributes of sex’ so Equality Act ‘sex’ is not biological, as the EHRC erroneously are now saying. Baroness Falkner, the EHRC’s chair, should read the Act
The accommodation and legal rights of trans people are now repeatedly under attack from those who would role it back, both in the UK and abroad.

If we need to be accepted in our affirmed gender, then please note that many people don’t have one. Re my point above, I believe that accepting me in my affirmed gender means not requiring me to share spaces with Robin with whom I have nothing in common.
A narrative that accommodating trans people is in some way a threat, particularly to women, now has shrill and persistent voices promoting it. Some on the right of politics have picked up on this as a useful political football, with little thought, it appears, on the effect that promoting that narrative has on vulnerable people.
Robin is ignoring the evidence of actual harm done to women when TW are accommodated in women’s facilities. No decent society should accept that. Neither should they accept the misogynistic use of 'shrill' to silence women's voices. This is particularly attacking from Robin who chose to keep the gravitas of a man's voice rather than attempt to further mock up a superficial semblance of a female body.
The old enemies of liberal western democracy are again on the march, shrouded in the sheep’s clothing of ‘sex-based rights’. Be in no doubt that gay rights or women’s bodily autonomy would be next on the agenda.
Many gay people do not agree Robin and I think Robin should not be speaking for others. Nothing about us without us also applies to women, gay men and lesbians.
A useful question?
So the ’What is a woman?’ question is useful because those who ask it, for effect or expecting a simple answer, ‘out’ themselves as adopting a reactionary position to the rich tapestry of human existence. If you believe in a diverse, accepting society, or you are a forward-looking employer wanting your employees to bring their whole selves to work, this is your fight as much as any trans person’s.
Robin is attempting to make a false equivalence between accepting the rich tapestry of human experience and opening women’s spaces to TW. This should be seen for the manipulation technique which it is. It is perfectly possible to protect women’s spaces and encourage the rich tapestry of human experience. That is a future which personally I would like to encourage and which I believe a just and true society should support.

NumberTheory · 10/04/2023 15:59

EnfysPreseli · 10/04/2023 14:15

Would biological processes also count as "other attributes of sex"? So dysmenorrhoea/menstruation, peri-menopause/menopause, pregnancy, lactation/breastfeeding could all be factors in sex discrimination against women. I appreciate there is a separate protected characteristic for pregnancy discrimination.

I’m not a biologist but, as PP said, physiology is function, so I think those processes would be under physiology.

Musomama1 · 10/04/2023 16:36

I feel Robin's take is simply one is a woman through sheer entitlement. RMW I've noticed goes for entitlement over sympathy.

Maya gives a great reality check.

literalviolence · 10/04/2023 16:42

Musomama1 · 10/04/2023 16:36

I feel Robin's take is simply one is a woman through sheer entitlement. RMW I've noticed goes for entitlement over sympathy.

Maya gives a great reality check.

Robin is interested in sympathy but not towards women. Robin uses a lot of emotional manipulation in Robin's answer - to try and garner sympathy for Robin, but not for the population as a whole, esp not for women.

EnfysPreseli · 10/04/2023 19:25

OK, so if biological processes or functions are covered by the word 'physiology' is there any record anywhere of what was intended by "other attributes of sex" during the parliamentary passage of the Bill, before it became law? Clothing and presentation can't be claimed to be attributes of sex, because fashions change and you don't change sex when you change your hairstyle or outfit. It sounds like either the drafting lawyers didn't know the precise definition of physiology or that it was added as a catch all 'anything else we haven't thought of yet'. A bit like the '+' in the alphabet soup acronym, which also has no place in legislation or government policy despite Welsh Government's desire to do so. It probably wasn't thought to be controversial or likely to lead to unintended consequences back in 2009/10. 🙄

NumberTheory · 10/04/2023 19:38

EnfysPreseli · 10/04/2023 19:25

OK, so if biological processes or functions are covered by the word 'physiology' is there any record anywhere of what was intended by "other attributes of sex" during the parliamentary passage of the Bill, before it became law? Clothing and presentation can't be claimed to be attributes of sex, because fashions change and you don't change sex when you change your hairstyle or outfit. It sounds like either the drafting lawyers didn't know the precise definition of physiology or that it was added as a catch all 'anything else we haven't thought of yet'. A bit like the '+' in the alphabet soup acronym, which also has no place in legislation or government policy despite Welsh Government's desire to do so. It probably wasn't thought to be controversial or likely to lead to unintended consequences back in 2009/10. 🙄

If you have access you could look through Hansard to see if anything was mentioned when it was debated. But, as I said above, before the GRA was around the courts have considered the question of how to decide if someone is male or female when considering the cases of people with differences in sexual development, and that focused entirely on biology. So it would be a reasonable argument to make to the court that that is what parliament would have intended.

But it’s something the courts would have to decide. Barristers acting for the that side of the debate might make better arguments in court than RMW made in an essay for an HR magazine. We see some biologists and doctors, etc. arguing the that sex isn’t binary on social media and other places - I think that’s where the basis of a challenge will come from.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/04/2023 20:10

Some on the right of politics have picked up on this as a useful political football, with little thought, it appears, on the effect that promoting that narrative has on vulnerable people.

Does RMW not know that some on the far left of politics ( the Communist party) agree with the views R objects to? And that this is not likely to be because they see it as a political football, anymore than the Labour Women’s Declaration see it as that, but because they realise that women are being ignored and made vulnerable by trans activist increasing demands.

PriOn1 · 10/04/2023 20:18

*”So does she [sic]actually think that gender expression is what makes someone a woman? Which is awful.

This was right back on page 2, but I believe the truthful answer would be no. None of these men actually believe they are women, which is why some of them are perpetually angry and why they spend so much of their time arguing that they are.

PriOn1 · 10/04/2023 20:24

Posted too soon. If they really believed they were women, they would be perpetually confused about the fact that anyone thought otherwise. The anger is absolutely about cognitive dissonance.

And that cognitive dissonance is one of the reasons the modern push for those who transition to be supposedly fully integrated as the opposite sex will collapse. Selling the idea that a group of people are so greatly distressed that it’s only kind to play along is one thing. Selling the outright lie that men are women is ultimately doomed to fail because nobody, even including the most devout transactivists, actually believes it’s true.

OldCrone · 10/04/2023 20:38

PriOn1 · 10/04/2023 20:18

*”So does she [sic]actually think that gender expression is what makes someone a woman? Which is awful.

This was right back on page 2, but I believe the truthful answer would be no. None of these men actually believe they are women, which is why some of them are perpetually angry and why they spend so much of their time arguing that they are.

I'm sure Robin understands that Robin isn't a woman, but on Robin's blog, Robin describes going out dressed in women's clothing (when still at the male crossdressing stage), and deciding to use the women's toilets because 'skirt and heels' = ladies'. So gender expression seems to be the defining factor for some trans identified people.

EnfysPreseli · 10/04/2023 21:52

Ah yes! Skirt and heels .... an attribute of sex I lack 99.99% of the time. Yet I managed to have been pregnant 7 times.

JanesLittleGirl · 10/04/2023 21:55

If RMW really, honestly and in their heart of hearts believes that they are a woman and that they believe that majority of people who meet them believe the same I'll show my arse in John Lewis's window.

nilsmousehammer · 10/04/2023 21:59

Not to mention having been sexually assaulted while with short hair, wearing trousers and trainers. No conversation before hand about how I identified, the men just kind of .... knew. That I was walking around with a kind of biology they felt their own biology gave them an entitlement to access. How I felt about it, or really anything going on inside that biology, was of no interest.

They have the type of biology where feelings and thoughts and identities get considered.

As opposed to the other kind of biology which is seen as a kind of walking natural resource.

Nellodee · 11/04/2023 05:57

What is a woman is not a complex question for a small proportion of society and a simple question for everyone else. It’s the same question for them as it is for everyone else, with the same answer. This is the same fudge the Labour Party are trying to use.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 13/04/2023 10:57

@nilsmousehammer 💝It's almost like the people raping and sexually assaulting women don't give a shit how we feel.

/wild

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