Couldn’t make it. Scottish witches get pardon.

[MrsMadderRose]

we’re so sorry we targeted women as witches

While right now women are being arrested and having “witch” screamed at them for thinking biological thoughts and not pretending to believe in magic

"the very real wrong perpetrated against women and the generational trauma this caused"

Can someone explain this 'generational trauma' here? This makes zero sense to me & is very meaningless 'sound bite' language, inappropriate & frankly bizarre.

I mean, burning or drowning women is quite obviously a 'real wrong' on the basis of them being accused of witchcraft or whatever. That's a 'no shit Sherlock' statement that requires no campaigning whatsoever. But 'generational trauma'? Seriously?

The thing is women deal with plenty of trauma anyway, and prejudice against and oppression of women is hard wired into society and embedded in every generation that comes along. The “generational trauma” of witches being burnt in the past is a drop on the ocean.

And that’s in the uk. There are millions of women around the world suffering unbearable trauma, from forced marriage to fgm to sex trafficking to torture by the taliban.

With the many harms that gender ideology imposes on women and girls being added on top, courtesy of the Scottish govt. If you’re not going to take an actual feminist stance on current issues, then exactly it is “witch-washing” 🧙‍♀️

@SantaClawsServiette

I have very little patience for these kinds of "pardons" or reversals of historic decisions, or even apologies. The level of meaninglessness involved is astronomical. No one really even believes in witches now. Nor is modern society and the state of the justice system we deal with really similar. Nor does it help anyone affected or even their descendants.

You might as well just make a statement that says, "Oh, by the way, we no longer believe in witches, plus due to historical circumstances those decisions were largely not carried out according to the appropriate legal procedures of the era."

Ok, so what?

Us witches believe in witches.

"the very real wrong perpetrated against women and the generational trauma this caused"

Can someone explain this 'generational trauma' here? This makes zero sense to me & is very meaningless 'sound bite' language, inappropriate & frankly bizarre

It's completely meaningless.

@PlayYouLikeAShark

"the very real wrong perpetrated against women and the generational trauma this caused"

Can someone explain this 'generational trauma' here? This makes zero sense to me & is very meaningless 'sound bite' language, inappropriate & frankly bizarre.

I mean, burning or drowning women is quite obviously a 'real wrong' on the basis of them being accused of witchcraft or whatever. That's a 'no shit Sherlock' statement that requires no campaigning whatsoever. But 'generational trauma'? Seriously?

Generational trauma because witchcraft accusations were often made when a man wanted to take inherited land/wealth from a woman. So there are family lines which were driven into poverty that have been deprived of wealth which would have been handed down through generations. There are people who don't exist today who would have existed had people not been murdered.

There are people who were tortured and forced to accuse family members who were then murdered and those hurt people raise hurt people who raise hurt people.

Is this actually the feminism board?

there are family lines which were driven into poverty that have been deprived of wealth which would have been handed down through generations. There are people who don't exist today who would have existed had people not been murdered.

Are you actually suggesting reparations for people who don't exist?!

I'm sure the 'witches' are greatly relieved to have been pardoned. I looked into some of these a while ago just out of interest and a lot of it was people with an axe to grind against neighbours or even ministers against parishioners.

The history of witchcraft is fascinating and grim, and undoubtedly a useful subject to study for the parallels between misogyny now and then. We could do well to look at mob rule, the use of religion and state power and superstition as well as various other aspects of the time.

But revisionism and sentimental indulgence is absurd. That wouldn't matter so much if it didn't actually distract from the injustices and absurdities happening today in the name of 'the right side of history'.

It is massively hypocritical given the witch hunt being visited on Scottish women today by the SNP and the police.
Totally agree about the loss of land and property down the generations and the terrible trauma to families.
I often wonder about this wrt the raging against historical slavery (which was terrible, but it happened and we should all learn) and the apparent lack of concern about modern slavery and trafficked women (see Holbeck in Leeds) right now.
Interestingly, if women had had the vote, slavery would have ended decades before it actually did., there is lots of evidence for this in the writings of women of the time, many of whom, of course, could not publish. William Wilberforce's bill depended solely on the votes of men.

It all comes back to virtue signalling.

@ArabellaScott

there are family lines which were driven into poverty that have been deprived of wealth which would have been handed down through generations. There are people who don't exist today who would have existed had people not been murdered.

Are you actually suggesting reparations for people who don't exist?!

Who suggested reperations?

I'm actually finding this thread quite hard to read. I know ScotGov and its enforcers are actively taking part in witch-hunts today so I get the hypocrisy. But this isn't a ScotGov campaign. This is a passion project led by two women who care about a historical wrong. They care that approximately 4,000 women were killed because of land, or sex, or just because. And yes, of course there was generational trauma - people's mums, grans, aunts, sisters were killed and everything they owned was taken from them.

4000 people out of a pop of around 1 million is a lot of people.

Yes, it's an easy tick for the govt. Pinkwashing, if you will. But this is our history and too few people know it. Obvs I don't need to draw the parallels for posters on this board! But none of that that shouldn't take away from celebrating the work of two women who have campaigned tirelessly for years on this issue

I didn't know this had not come from the government. That does put a different complexion on it. It would be good if the government could actually think about the current parallels.

@ArabellaScott

there are family lines which were driven into poverty that have been deprived of wealth which would have been handed down through generations. There are people who don't exist today who would have existed had people not been murdered.

Are you actually suggesting reparations for people who don't exist?!

This is from Edinburgh University. It debunks the claim about deprivation of wealth.

www.shca.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/introduction.html

@GoGoGretaDoll

I'm actually finding this thread quite hard to read. I know ScotGov and its enforcers are actively taking part in witch-hunts today so I get the hypocrisy. But this isn't a ScotGov campaign. This is a passion project led by two women who care about a historical wrong. They care that approximately 4,000 women were killed because of land, or sex, or just because. And yes, of course there was generational trauma - people's mums, grans, aunts, sisters were killed and everything they owned was taken from them.

4000 people out of a pop of around 1 million is a lot of people.

Yes, it's an easy tick for the govt. Pinkwashing, if you will. But this is our history and too few people know it. Obvs I don't need to draw the parallels for posters on this board! But none of that that shouldn't take away from celebrating the work of two women who have campaigned tirelessly for years on this issue

Agree I think it's difficult for posters to separate this from the SNP being generally very anti women but this is NOT an SNP campaign, it's a feminist campaign. I'm Scottish, living in Scotland and there's a strong chance I'd have been accused of being a witch 350 years ago.

I think you can recognise this is a campaign with merit and that those women (and some men) deserve to be pardoned while still saying that the SNP are harming women today.

@GoGoGretaDoll

I'm actually finding this thread quite hard to read. I know ScotGov and its enforcers are actively taking part in witch-hunts today so I get the hypocrisy. But this isn't a ScotGov campaign. This is a passion project led by two women who care about a historical wrong. They care that approximately 4,000 women were killed because of land, or sex, or just because. And yes, of course there was generational trauma - people's mums, grans, aunts, sisters were killed and everything they owned was taken from them.

4000 people out of a pop of around 1 million is a lot of people.

Yes, it's an easy tick for the govt. Pinkwashing, if you will. But this is our history and too few people know it. Obvs I don't need to draw the parallels for posters on this board! But none of that that shouldn't take away from celebrating the work of two women who have campaigned tirelessly for years on this issue

It is not 4,000 out of a population of 1 million. The figure is slightly less than that and spread over 200 years.

As for loss of land and wealth , please read this analysis by Edinburgh University

www.shca.ed.ac.uk/Research/witches/introduction.html

That link is really interesting @KimikosNightmare and I've just read it. But, ya know, so what? The numbers were slightly lower, their wealth wasn't a factor - great. I still care. I'm still raging. I still support the campaign. I'm from East Lothian and I know witch-hunting was used as a method of control for generations. I suspect you're using it in a 'calm down dear' fashion, which is unlikely to succeed round these parts.

The campaign and podcast actually uses a lot of the research carried out by Edinburgh University. They also speak to historians etc it's very well researched. When I talk about deprivation of land and wealth I don't mean by the witch hunters or the state. Witch Hunters were true believers. I mean that when women of means were accused they were often accused by men who would benefit from their death, eg a brother, uncle or inlaw.

The podcast covers a lot of individual cases where details exist and goes into more of an explanation of why people were accused.

Sorry that was a quote fail

"Generational trauma because witchcraft accusations were often made when a man wanted to take inherited land/wealth from a woman. So there are family lines which were driven into poverty that have been deprived of wealth which would have been handed down through generations. There are people who don't exist today who would have existed had people not been murdered.

There are people who were tortured and forced to accuse family members who were then murdered and those hurt people raise hurt people who raise hurt people.

Is this actually the feminism board?"

Sorry but this is bollocks. You are mapping a framework from other significant historical events onto this & extrapolating just made up nonsense. Scottish society now isn't scarred by this. Families aren't riven with the impact of this. The fact you have to imagine what 'generational trauma' actually could be as opposed to any evidence of the impact on women today or wider society today illustrates this. Burning witches was a brutal representation of extreme hatred & dehumanisation of women when it occurred but hatred towards women today doesn't stem from burning witches.

This is the feminist board & we don't need to make up utter nonsense to make a point.

Generational trauma from slavery or the holocaust is easily demonstrated & understood. Appropriating that terminology in this instance is crass & pretty poor taste. We can all learn more about Scottish women accused of being witches & the brutal treatment they were subjected to without trying to invent a 'generational trauma' that doesn't exist.

PlayYouLikeAShark well said.

The figure of 4,000 out of a population of 1 million is popping up. Over the entire period the average figure would be just over 19 out of a population of 1 million.

Obviously 19 too many but to try to equate that to "generational trauma" is absurd.

If a woman feels that she has suffered trauma due to the murder of her ancestor on spurious, made-up charges, who am I to deny that? I'm not in charge of how and when trauma shows up.

This is nothing to do with the SNP, there are two women who run this campaign and it has cross party support.
The idea that past wrongs shouldn't be righted or acknowledged because of whataboutery is a very strange attitude.
I have a PhD in early modern Scottish history, and know a fair bit about this subject. I also live on a farm where one of the witches lived 400 years ago. I know how from primary sources she was a young woman who was tortured, strangled and burned. It's horrific really. There is also evidence that even at the time local people didn't think this was right or just or even holy.
It was a crime where 84% of cases were women. I'm really surprised that modern day feminists can't get behind this because they hate the SNP's attitude to gender and sex so much. I say that as a GC woman.

I’m quite surprised at the tone of this thread.

I get the absolute rage reading about witch trials. For me it is not a separate issue from any of the other injustices perpetuated against women now and through the centuries.

Coming of age in the 90s, my generation of young adults genuinely believed that the “battle of the sexes” was largely won and that we were entering a post feminist age.

But actually the undertow of violent misogyny remains, and I think it’s important to recognise it, historically and now.

I wouldn’t be surprised to see women burned again in my lifetine- horrified and appalled, but not surprised. Nothing has changed in those 400 years that gives me more confidence.

There’s a Halloween meme that asks why we we taught to fear witches instead of the people who burned them. This pardon is part of turning the spotlight on the real evil. It’s important and to my mind part of the paradigm shift we’re living through now where people like Weinstein can be seen clearly for what they are instead of viewed through a glamour.

The idea that past wrongs shouldn't be righted or acknowledged because of whataboutery is a very strange attitude

No one has said past wrongs shouldn't be acknowledged but even then has anyone ever in the 19th or 20th or 21st century ever said , "you know, those witch hunters I think they were on to something" ?

You're not the only person on here who knows about the history of Scottish Witchcraft; you're not the only person on here who has studied it as part of their formal academic education.

What I object to is the utterly pointless pardoning and apologies- who is apologising and to whom?