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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Say goodbye to your pudendum

76 replies

MsAmerica · 06/10/2021 01:59

Taking the ‘Shame Part’ Out of Female Anatomy
Anatomists have bid farewell to “pudendum"
By Rachel E. Gross

In the beginning, shame knew no sex. First-century Roman writers used “pudendum” to mean the genitals of men, women and animals. But it was women to whom the shame stuck.

In 1543, the word made an appearance alongside an odd illustration in an anatomical atlas by Andreas Vesalius, a Flemish physician sometimes called the “father of modern anatomy.” The image, although labeled a human uterus, looks unmistakably like a penis, but with a tuft of curly pubic hair near the head, reflecting the idea that women were just men with imperfect, internal body parts. (Also, recall the dearth of female corpses.)

A century later, a Dutch anatomist named Regnier de Graaf highlighted the role of the clitoris in female sexuality. “If these parts of the pudendum had not been endowed with such an exquisite sensitivity to pleasure,” he wrote, “no woman would be willing to take upon herself the irksome nine-months-long business of gestation, the painful and often fatal process of expelling the fetus, and the worrisome and care-ridden task of raising children.”

www.nytimes.com/2021/09/21/science/pudendum-women-anatomy.html

indianexpress.com/article/technology/science/shame-part-female-anatomy-pudendum-7526800/

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 07/10/2021 22:54

thinkingaboutLangCleg-

It's fascinating isn't it.

The shit payoff with big brains/ upright. Was/ is that it makes giving birth more difficult/ painful/ risky. Getting that big head out. Evolution resulted in a balance where the big brain is accommodated without resulting in a death rate of mothers/ babies that would impact our reproduction as a species too much.

This is also the reason our babies are so helpless compared to most (all?) other mammals. They are born at an earlier stage of development, before their head gets too big.

It's really interesting!

LobsterNapkin · 08/10/2021 02:41

@Shedbuilder

Because of the words you wrote. You know, the suggestion that some of us on this thread think that the removal of the world pudendum will 'somehow remedy problems like shame.' No one's said that.
Um, no, I was talking about the articles, not about anyone on the thread.
LobsterNapkin · 08/10/2021 02:49

The idea that the reproductive system isn't for reproduction is a bit odd. There is a reason we don't find them in amoebas. No sexual reproduction, no uterus, no need for a vagina.

The vagina is only there for reproduction, which depends on sex with someone with a penis, it didn't evolve with IVF type scenarios in mind.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 02:51

Which post are you referring to with that? Not sure if it's me or someone else!

Nellodee · 08/10/2021 06:44

To be fair, I’ve sheathed a lot more penises than I’ve burned children.

Nellodee · 08/10/2021 06:45

Birthed!

PieMistee · 08/10/2021 06:52

I have never heard the word pudendum before. When is it ever used?

Thulian · 08/10/2021 08:37

Ok I’ve come back to the thread and had this thought. Do we know that the “sheath” is definitely referring to the penis being sheathed, or is it whatever happens to be surrounded by and/or enclosed by the vagina? From my googling, Latin vagina can mean sheath or husk/surrounding of a wheat/plant kernel. The latter might seem more linked to giving birth. So is the that it means for a penis a more recent assumption?

In my first post I did say sheathing the penis was one of the functions of the vagina and not the only one. I think it’s fairly normal for a thing to be named after one of its functions and not all, but in this case it’s really the shape of the vagina, something that surrounds, that has given it its name.

Btw I’m not taking sides in the argument on this thread, just musing.

Thulian · 08/10/2021 08:37

The idea that it means

Shedbuilder · 08/10/2021 11:30

I don't think there's any doubt that a lot of men think of their penis as a weapon. Look at the threats against terfs: so many references to rape and fucking as punishment. It's regularly used as a weapon in war when men and women are raped by the victors. So I don't think there's much point in wasting time pondering on whether it might mean something else.

Thulian · 08/10/2021 11:40

I don't deny that at all, but the more etymology I find about, the more I realise things are named for all sorts of random reasons. Making an assumption about why something is called what it is on the basis of its apparent etymology is often totally wrong.

Again I'm not saying this to disagree, but I do think it's worth pondering, Things generally are.

LobsterNapkin · 08/10/2021 13:32

I mean, the sheath of a sword isn't an "original" word, if that makes sense. It's called that because it encloses the sword. But you could equally sheath many other things. The sheath of a sword specifically is a scabbard. You sheath the sword in the scabbard.

There are a lot of sheaths in anatomy, like the one around your heart, which doesn't really have anything to do with a penis or sword.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 20:05

Thulian it was only the statement that being penetrated with a penis was the SOLE function. Which is just silly.

It then descended into even more peculiar assertions from apparently a biologist...!

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 20:06

And all that is simple nonsense.

I mean unless they've redefined some words Grin

The statement that the only evolution of the vagina was to do with penetration was a particular high point.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 20:15

@LobsterNapkin

I mean, the sheath of a sword isn't an "original" word, if that makes sense. It's called that because it encloses the sword. But you could equally sheath many other things. The sheath of a sword specifically is a scabbard. You sheath the sword in the scabbard.

There are a lot of sheaths in anatomy, like the one around your heart, which doesn't really have anything to do with a penis or sword.

What else would it mean is sheathed inside a vagina though?

I mean if that's a personal question you don't need to answer Grin

Thulian · 08/10/2021 21:58

I think it's that the ancient word that can be translated as sheath can have a more general meaning of "thing that surrounds" and / or "husk" - so could refer to the vagina as simply a "hollow", or a thing that can surround other things including birthing babies not just sheathing penises.

I mean I am getting ridiculously detailed now but originally I was just wondering if the penis was actually strongly implied or if we're just assuming that. Of course it makes sense, just might not be a given.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 22:12

The penis is more than strongly implied surely!

A baby comes out not put in.

Plenty of things which reference penis as sword. Off top of my head (sorry!) pork sword.

It's also often through history been thought of as powerful. (By men obv!). And is certainly used as a weapon.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 22:14

Oh googled. Lots in Shakespeare.

Also, symbolic in TV sword cock. Like fireworks orgasm, gun also dick etc.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 22:19

Just realised in s thread about language for women's sex organs.

We are all endlessly discussing dicks HmmGrin

Fucks sake!

And all because of the FACT that (so we're told) the vagina has ONE SOLE function, and that is the only function (obviously) that has been involved in its evolution. And so calling it place for dick is totally fine and not even worth a seconds thought Grin

Thulian · 08/10/2021 22:52

But that’s my point. All our penis=sword, sword goes in a sheath, therefore vag=penis holder, are deriving from what we understand culturally and therefore assume about the word’s origins. What I’m saying is that those connections could have come later. Vagina may just have been named what it was to mean “hollow” or hole.

Again, I am not saying I disagree that penis sword sheath is a perfectly likely origin, I’m just saying you can’t assume that because etymology doesn’t work to suit our assumptions, it is much more random and convoluted than that.

But that is my last attempt to make my point because I know I’m sounding like a stuck record.

Thulian · 08/10/2021 22:53

*Just realised in s thread about language for women's sex organs.

We are all endlessly discussing dicks

I’m not :o

Thulian · 08/10/2021 22:55

I actually really dislike both the words vagina and penis. Urgh. I never say them in RL, they make me cringe!

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 23:10

@Thulian

But that’s my point. All our penis=sword, sword goes in a sheath, therefore vag=penis holder, are deriving from what we understand culturally and therefore assume about the word’s origins. What I’m saying is that those connections could have come later. Vagina may just have been named what it was to mean “hollow” or hole.

Again, I am not saying I disagree that penis sword sheath is a perfectly likely origin, I’m just saying you can’t assume that because etymology doesn’t work to suit our assumptions, it is much more random and convoluted than that.

But that is my last attempt to make my point because I know I’m sounding like a stuck record.

Are we?

By the way I'm enjoying this chat. Moreso than the previous nonsense!

It's from Latin, sheath.

I'm not sure when phrases like pork sword were invented but I'd put money on the area/ group it came from didn't know the etymology!

I really do think that it's a dead cert it's putting penis in.

I've got a couple other things that I'll look into if feel like it...

What about languages that do not derive from Latin

And poss words before Roman empire. That sort of thing.

Nachthex · 08/10/2021 23:16

I was trying to remember my midwifery lectures about the functions of the vagina. They were something like these:

Sexual intercourse – receives the penis and ejaculate, assisting in its transport to the uterus.
Childbirth – expands to provide a channel for delivery of a newborn from the uterus.
Menstruation – serves as a canal for menstrual fluid and tissue to leave the body.

So not just as a receptacle for the penis.

NiceGerbil · 08/10/2021 23:20

I wish there was a 'friendly' and generally used word for vulva, like willy.

The multitude of eupamisms, some very strange. The way that more friendly words quickly become highly sexualised.

I mean it's because of women's genitals for ages being seen as just inherently rude, vulgar, unmentionable.

When I was growing up. Downstairs / undercarriage down before were generally used. By those of older generations.

I didn't even HAVE a word! I mean literally.

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