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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

999 replies

MaudTheInvincible · 16/09/2021 19:19

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow
OP posts:
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7
ButterflyHatched · 27/09/2021 17:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 27/09/2021 18:07

I'd really love to chat with her if she's willing; I appreciate the fraught nature of online communication and the everpresent danger of bad actors so completely understand if this is something she's wary about doing.

Then stop asking! At least twice today! Nobody is going to take you up on your 'kind' offer.

Alekto · 27/09/2021 19:13

Jesus christ how many red flags?!

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 27/09/2021 19:19

Perhaps reading this open letter from someone at a GIDS clinic will meet Butterfly's needs.

extract

I believe that Clinical Psychologists working elsewhere presume that because GIDS is part of Tavistock and Portman that it is working in line with the high standards and prestigious reputation that the trust has earned over the decades. I wish to make it clear to other Clinical Psychologists that most of the gender identity assessments being undertaken at GIDS are not being underpinned by the psychodynamic approach that the Tavistock is famous for.

There are children who have had very traumatic early experiences and early losses who are being put on the medical pathway without having explored or addressed their early adverse experiences. At GIDS no one directly tells you that you’re not allowed to suggest that perhaps these early experiences might be connected to a child’s wish to transition but if you make the mistake of suggesting this in a team meeting you run the risk of being called transphobic.

I think there are others, like me, who went to work at GIDS expecting to do complex assessments and differential diagnosis but the reality is that you run the risk of being called transphobic if you propose that, say, a child might have Body Dysmorphia rather than Gender Dysphoria.

(continues)

I believe that Clinical Psychologists working elsewhere presume that because GIDS is part of Tavistock and Portman that it is working in line with the high standards and prestigious reputation that the trust has earned over the decades. I wish to make it clear to other Clinical Psychologists that most of the gender identity assessments being undertaken at GIDS are not being underpinned by the psychodynamic approach that the Tavistock is famous for.

There are children who have had very traumatic early experiences and early losses who are being put on the medical pathway without having explored or addressed their early adverse experiences. At GIDS no one directly tells you that you’re not allowed to suggest that perhaps these early experiences might be connected to a child’s wish to transition but if you make the mistake of suggesting this in a team meeting you run the risk of being called transphobic.

I think there are others, like me, who went to work at GIDS expecting to do complex assessments and differential diagnosis but the reality is that you run the risk of being called transphobic if you propose that, say, a child might have Body Dysmorphia rather than Gender Dysphoria.

(continues)

I also strongly believe that it is GIDS duty to make it known that it is highly unlikely that any child presenting there will be told that they are not transgender. One of my biggest ethical dilemmas whilst working at GIDS was that there were parents who brought their child to GIDS anticipating that we would confirm that the child was not transgender but we are not able to tell parents that actually there is some unspoken rule that means GIDS clinicians do not tell families, “your child is not transgender”.

Since leaving GIDS I have, over time, been learning about organisations and academics who present a more critical approach to gender identity and the medical pathway for children. I have also seen accounts of young people who no longer identify as transgender, even after medical interventions and are now distressed about having been put on the medical pathway. It is by seeing their courage that gives me the courage and the ethical duty to speak up.

I urge you to look up the stories of “detransitioners” (currently mostly American and Canadian young people) who report that they were not offered differential diagnosis of their gender dysphoria and that they were either coerced into medical transition or were not mentally well enough to give informed consent. I believe it is only a matter of time before we start to hear similar stories from British young people and that there needs to be a service available to give them support.

Continues: medium.com/@kirstyentwistle?p=53c541276b8d

ButterflyHatched · 27/09/2021 22:31

I appreciate that I've been coming across as combatitive, so can I just have a quick recalibration here as I think both my tone and intent has come across wrong in the above post. If MNHQ would prefer for me to just drop this topic outright then I'll happily accept that - moderating this discussion can't be easy at the best of times, and the heroic effort involved in this particular case is very welcome.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2021 07:30

Not sure what corner of the Internet you read about the ‘hostile’ and whatever women who post on MN and decided that we needed educating. Maybe the style of interaction there is less strictly moderated.

But are you appealing to MNHQ mod team, or to us ? I am sure you are well aware how a forum works. The moderating team simply decides whether your posts fit the guidelines (which are very skewed towards activists being given more leeway than feminists due to the constant monitoring and reporting by activists via Twitter).

If your posts remain within the guidelines, it is then up to people to choose to engage with you. Why would any of us continue with the way you have posted?

You don’t actually even seem to take any notice of the repeated comments about the current cohort of transitioners and their needs. You even implied our concerns are simply interference when it is our families, our loved ones who are being affected. And not once have you even acknowledged the higher health risks for these young female transitioners. Not even the permanent pain from scarring and nerve damage from mastectomies that are being performed on 15 year olds in some countries. And this was on this thread, about Kiera Bell.

We get accused of being an echo chamber, yet it seems we draw our knowledge from listening to trans people too, as well as detransitioners, clinicians (who get nothing from going against the ideological thinking, except to make treatment better for those being harmed by poorly fitting treatment paths) and researchers. Maybe though, the trans people we listen too are deemed the wrong ones. We have been told this by mature male
posters in the past. The fact that I, and others, read articles and posts from mature female transitioners seem to be the issue for a few posters.

And all we get in return is attempts to shame, only anecdotal evidence drawn from what seems to be actual echo chambers.

Appeal to MNHQ all you like, though. All they can do is keep it civil. They can’t coerce people to engage.

Feelingoktoday · 28/09/2021 08:04

Do we ever hear from trans men on Mumsnet or is it just trans women advising us how to behave? I’ve spent my whole life being told what to do, wear and say by men. It’s not happening anymore.

Helleofabore · 28/09/2021 08:19

There are transmen who pop up occasionally. I think many read the threads but don’t contribute until they see something they want to address. And they all have different perspectives to offer and different opinions.

Do they post from a position that is not about shaming other posters? Not really actually. A couple do but most others tend to simply post without the accusations or admonishments and the exchanges are always really informative.

We have more transwomen posters. And there are quite a number who disagree on some issues and agree on others. But again, they are not posting judgements, merely stating their views and interacting. Some even bring us evidence to disseminate and that is fun. Sadly there are always some who merely scold women for saying no to them as there is in real life.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 28/09/2021 09:55

It's mostly transwomen who come on here with the intention to 'educate' us on the error of our ways. Although S Whittle has come on here before to tell us off too.

Butterfly, I missed your deleted post so may have missed something. But why should Keira Bell chat with you?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/09/2021 10:32

@ButterflyHatched

I appreciate that I've been coming across as combatitive, so can I just have a quick recalibration here as I think both my tone and intent has come across wrong in the above post. If MNHQ would prefer for me to just drop this topic outright then I'll happily accept that - moderating this discussion can't be easy at the best of times, and the heroic effort involved in this particular case is very welcome.
Stop it. The idea that you can directly appeal to MNHQ for permission is daft. And neatly sidesteps the reality that it is us, other posters, who report posts for moderation. You were most likely NOT deleted because a moderator was reading your posts but because another poster decided to report the post as it contravenes the rules here.

Interesting that in recalibrating you chose to rob every other poster of agency! Nice try pumpkin 😊

(A retort stolen from Twitter, which I may use more often!)

CovoidOfAllHumanity · 28/09/2021 10:57

The quote from the psychologist who left GIDS is really informative

I'd agree that the Tavistock has a huge reputation within the mental health field for being a centre of excellence for psychotherapy. It's the last place in the world you would think that people would be pushing a biological solution which makes this all the more surprising.

It would have been my assumption until this scandal broke that people referred to a service based in a well known flagship hospital for psychological therapies would get just that. I would absolutely have assumed that other diagnoses were considered and other treatment pathways considered apart from just prescribing hormones which (as Helen Webberly realised) any Dr can fairly easily do. Surely that is not the hard part and does not justify having a tertiary referral service if that is all they are going to do.

Gender identity services need an urgent rethink at commissioning level but sadly in the current climate that would wind up hi jacked by pressure groups and people would just get more hormone prescription services (cheap and easy) rather than more psychotherapy (skilled and expensive) based services.

ButterflyHatched · 28/09/2021 11:16

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

It's mostly transwomen who come on here with the intention to 'educate' us on the error of our ways. Although S Whittle has come on here before to tell us off too.

Butterfly, I missed your deleted post so may have missed something. But why should Keira Bell chat with you?

I'm not sure I can safely comment other than to say that's not what I was asking for. I'd appreciate not being drawn on it as I'm not sure what it was about that post that breached the guidelines.
Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 28/09/2021 11:26

Fair enough Butterfly.

RedDogsBeg · 28/09/2021 12:51

@ButterflyHatched, the deletion was no doubt because you asked WeeBisom to share confidential details her own and someone else's with you and this is not the first time you have asked for people to interact with you off board. That is explicitly against the guidelines of this site and basic internet safety 101, you are trying to portray yourself as an intelligent person yet you cannot understand something as simple as this?

You are also aware of the very real risks to GC women from TRAs and why women have to remain as anonymous as they can in their internet and social media interactions and yet you are requesting they give you details of themselves and others expecting them to trust you - someone who they don't know, someone whose agenda they don't know. I mean, seriously?

ButterflyHatched · 28/09/2021 14:08

[quote RedDogsBeg]**@ButterflyHatched, the deletion was no doubt because you asked WeeBisom to share confidential details her own and someone else's with you and this is not the first time you have asked for people to interact with you off board. That is explicitly against the guidelines of this site and basic internet safety 101, you are trying to portray yourself as an intelligent person yet you cannot understand something as simple as this?

You are also aware of the very real risks to GC women from TRAs and why women have to remain as anonymous as they can in their internet and social media interactions and yet you are requesting they give you details of themselves and others expecting them to trust you - someone who they don't know, someone whose agenda they don't know. I mean, seriously?[/quote]
Ok thanks for the clarification. Intent doesn't matter; the outcome was that it was percieved that way. My apologies.

I'm a trans woman who grew up in a world where we didn't even have legal protection; the dangers of poor personal information security are very, very clear to me - I've mentioned this several times, in fact I've advised people not to share anything dangerous or that they'd come to regret and been extremely careful and selective with the information I've volunteered. I ask to not have my intelligence insulted with claims I don't understand the issues I live with every day.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/09/2021 14:42

But you have also repeatedly dismissed or ignored the voices of every woman responding to you, the very day issues we live with.

Every female voice, and a trans voice or two, that tells you very plainly, your wants and needs are understood by many here, what you don't want to acknowledge us that your wants and needs are sometimes in direct conflict with ours, and demanding yours be given priority just won't wash here.

That and the repeated requests for an offline/elsewhere chat displays very clearly that you do not fear your loss of anonymity as much as many posting here do.

Stat with: we don't want your apologies. We seek your understanding.

RedDogsBeg · 28/09/2021 14:58

I'm a trans woman who grew up in a world where we didn't even have legal protection; the dangers of poor personal information security are very, very clear to me - I've mentioned this several times, in fact I've advised people not to share anything dangerous or that they'd come to regret and been extremely careful and selective with the information I've volunteered. I ask to not have my intelligence insulted with claims I don't understand the issues I live with every day.

Oh come on @ButterflyHatched, you post this and yet you have repeatedly ask posters on here to share information with you about themselves and others, to engage with you in a different space - the only intelligence being insulted here is ours. You expect us to trust you with personal and confidential information, to trust you not to disseminate that information to others in your circle, we were not born yesterday.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/09/2021 14:59

Does beggar belief, doesn't it?

Helleofabore · 28/09/2021 15:12

disseminate that information to others in your circle

Namely the ones which cannot see that the use of 'strident' when referring to women is problematic.

ButterflyHatched · 28/09/2021 16:30

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

The quote from the psychologist who left GIDS is really informative

I'd agree that the Tavistock has a huge reputation within the mental health field for being a centre of excellence for psychotherapy. It's the last place in the world you would think that people would be pushing a biological solution which makes this all the more surprising.

It would have been my assumption until this scandal broke that people referred to a service based in a well known flagship hospital for psychological therapies would get just that. I would absolutely have assumed that other diagnoses were considered and other treatment pathways considered apart from just prescribing hormones which (as Helen Webberly realised) any Dr can fairly easily do. Surely that is not the hard part and does not justify having a tertiary referral service if that is all they are going to do.

Gender identity services need an urgent rethink at commissioning level but sadly in the current climate that would wind up hi jacked by pressure groups and people would just get more hormone prescription services (cheap and easy) rather than more psychotherapy (skilled and expensive) based services.

@CovoidOfAllHumanity

Agreed. There is clearly a need to improve the services that young people recieve. Have you seen the GIDS stats that were just released? People are currently at 'first appointment' for referrals that were made in 2017.

2017

If you asked for referral to GIDS at 11, you'd be 15 now, and still have the prospect of several months more waiting just to be allowed to pause the effects of a puberty that you've been desperately trying to escape for a third of your life. If you came to them at 15, you'd be 19 now, and the entire endeavour would have been completely pointless.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 28/09/2021 16:38

Boo!

Just checking ☺️

OldCrone · 28/09/2021 16:54

If you asked for referral to GIDS at 11, you'd be 15 now, and still have the prospect of several months more waiting just to be allowed to pause the effects of a puberty that you've been desperately trying to escape for a third of your life.

Other than being 'born in the wrong body', what reasons do you think there might be for a child 'desperately trying to escape' puberty?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/09/2021 17:06

Wasn't it revealed that the the treatment protocols reduced the future height of the female transitioners, thus reducing their chances of successfully 'passing' as male as adults?

Helleofabore · 28/09/2021 17:32

Yes purgatory. I believe it did. Not the the needs of young female transitioners have been acknowledged to be different by some activists and groups. I remember a number of posters who have told us in the past that some things were ok as collateral as long as male transitioners got what they need. There was even one who told us that teaching young female teenagers about anal sex and to avoid telling them the high risk associated (even after a emergency doctor came on the thread to inform us of the damage she has witnessed to girls during anal sex) was necessary to remove any stigma for males.

ProfessorSillyStuff · 28/09/2021 18:13

I'd like to read that thread if you have a link please @Helleofabore