The judgment in Keira Bell's case will be given tomorrow

[MaudTheInvincible]

The judgment of the Tavistock's appeal of the case will be given at 2pm.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/royal-courts-of-justice-cause-list/royal-courts-of-justice-daily-cause-list

Brave Keira. You have done so much to protect children from ideologically driven healthcare around the world. Your integrity and courage is inspiring and rare in this ridiculous day and age. 💚🤍💜

Well said, Red

So much forced teaming going on!

Is this a telenovela? Haven't seen one one those for a while in feminist chat.

the entire notion of infertile women being lesser in some way is just horrendous anyway.

That is horrendously offensive, yes. I'm taken aback that you think it's okay for you to equate your idea of womanhood with that of an infertile woman.

Trans women aren't women, and trans men aren't men, unless other people say they are and treat them in a way that is congruent with their own experiences. You'd get cancelled for that on Twitter..

If you aren't allowed to live that truth, then while it still gets to be true for you personally in your own internal life - nobody but you is the arbiter of that - you're just one-handed clapping. You experience what you experience while the rest of the world glares at you, shuffles their feet awkwardly and tries to find excuses to be somewhere else.
But that's true of a lot of self-beliefs, surely?

Learning the Rules of Gendered Presentation is hard
Surely that flies in the face of the idea of innate gender, doesn't it? If a person feels like a woman because (insert feminine stereotype) then what is there to learn? Genuine question.

what right do other people have to claim something that's yours; how dare they appropriate your experiences as their own
Well, quite. And the answer usually seems to be "because I would be very sad otherwise". But we don't accept it as a reason to "identify into" other characteristics, so what is different about your own particular sadness that means society should play along? I don't say that to be mean, just asking the question with regard to the logic of it.

be polite enough to not dehumanise me and cast me as a duplicitous, dangerous predator
This I can't accept. If you happen to be born male, and humans born male are statistically more dangerous, then mitigations put in place to manage that risk aren't personal. Most men accept this. Nobody on this thread has called you a predator.

Yes I have to pick up on this bit as well -

There -are- parts of womanhood and manhood that aren't accessible to trans people; this has always felt like a temporal, technological issue rather than a fundamental, essential quality, but it does stand currently. If you want to phrase that as incomplete womanhood, or false womanhood, then I suppose that's your perogative. I've always felt like a part of myself was missing, but I don't think the missing part invalidates the whole, and the entire notion of infertile women being lesser in some way is just horrendous anyway.

I assume that you are referring to the concept of transwomen being able to carry their own children. But this reduces the female body into the concept of an incubator - that it's as simple as just transplanting a womb into a male body. It ignores the complex mechanisms which affect and are affected by pregnancy.

Infertile women are women with female reproductive issues. To even obliquely refer to them as being an example of 'incomplete womanhood' to make a point about transwomen not being able to 'access a part of womanhood' is incredibly offensive. Male bodies are not made to become pregnant so it is not the same thing. You will very quickly lose any good feeling in women if you continue to conflate these two things.

what right do other people have to claim something that's yours; how dare they appropriate your experiences as their own

No, you're misunderstanding women's views, here. I don't care what claims someone makes or how they see themselves. It's not my business, your perception. Likewise, my perception of others is my business alone.

'Woman' is not a concept that is created by fiat, by agreement or by perception. Sex is pretty simple. It's just a physical state. Unalterable. Nobody can 'claim' it just as nobody can renounce it.

@OldCrone

I've always felt like a part of myself was missing, but I don't think the missing part invalidates the whole, and the entire notion of infertile women being lesser in some way is just horrendous anyway.

I do hope that this apparent appropriation of the experiences of infertile women is just due to poor phrasing and that it was unintentional.

I just ask they try to believe me when I say my experiences of womanhood are real

You don't have experiences of womanhood though. Your experiences are different from those of women. No less 'valid' if that's the term you like to use, but different and distinct. You can no more experience what it is to be a woman than I can experience what it is to be a transwoman.

1. Never my desire to appropriate; they are different experiences, I don't know or understand them, and I heartily acknowledge that. I was just aware that there was a danger of the statement of my own personal perspective on my own difficulties being read wrong by implication.

1. I think we're in danger of counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, here. Our experiences are different in some ways and similar in others. There is evidently a commonality of experience to existing in society while being perceived as female, while those experiences are also contextually influenced by prior ones. My mother's experiences are also different to my sister's, and to those of my friends. My experiences are even different to those of most other trans women. Many of our experiences are different to those of women who live in different countries under different social paradigms, and many of them also to those of men.

It seems pretty clear to me that is no such thing as a singular, monolithic experience; just shared points of commonality.

Learning the Rules of Gendered Presentation is hard

Can you explain what you mean by this? I wasn't aware that anyone had to learn any 'rules of gendered presentation'.

There is really one one shared commonality Between all women

It's thier sex

That determines how society treats them
That determines what is considered medically working ... if you bleed monthly and are a woman between age 15 and 50 that's fine . If you don't , something has gone wrong and needs investigating

There is evidently a commonality of experience to existing in society while being perceived as female,

Nope.

This is really offensive. I am not perceived as female.

You are repeating all the usual ignorant offensive bullshit.

Person who isn't born female is treated from birth different to those who are

Growing up with male treatment will form a character snd attitudes that no amount of dress and make up will disguise

People may think that they are treated like woman , in the unlikely case that they really pass , but the response they have to any interaction will be formed by thier male early years training , which in turn affects the on going interaction

Denying facts is always a regressive stance in a society. Historically it has always heralded dangerous cultish fanaticism.

That is why being gay is not in any way a threat to anyone but bigots. Being gay, being attracted to someone of the same sex, is a preference to be respected. Wanting to dress or feel like a woman if you are a man, is not a threat to anyone but bigots. Again, it is a preference and to be respected.

However saying that there is no such thing as being born male or female, is saying that a fact is not a fact, and is denying what is true. Saying that as a man that you are now, in fact, a woman, is totally different from the above.

@FlyingOink

Trans women aren't women, and trans men aren't men, unless other people say they are and treat them in a way that is congruent with their own experiences. You'd get cancelled for that on Twitter..

If you aren't allowed to live that truth, then while it still gets to be true for you personally in your own internal life - nobody but you is the arbiter of that - you're just one-handed clapping. You experience what you experience while the rest of the world glares at you, shuffles their feet awkwardly and tries to find excuses to be somewhere else.
But that's true of a lot of self-beliefs, surely?

Learning the Rules of Gendered Presentation is hard
Surely that flies in the face of the idea of innate gender, doesn't it? If a person feels like a woman because (insert feminine stereotype) then what is there to learn? Genuine question.

what right do other people have to claim something that's yours; how dare they appropriate your experiences as their own
Well, quite. And the answer usually seems to be "because I would be very sad otherwise". But we don't accept it as a reason to "identify into" other characteristics, so what is different about your own particular sadness that means society should play along? I don't say that to be mean, just asking the question with regard to the logic of it.

be polite enough to not dehumanise me and cast me as a duplicitous, dangerous predator
This I can't accept. If you happen to be born male, and humans born male are statistically more dangerous, then mitigations put in place to manage that risk aren't personal. Most men accept this. Nobody on this thread has called you a predator.

You'd get cancelled for that on Twitter.. That'd be why I don't use Twitter then. More seriously - the point I'm making here is that as humans we are only allowed to actually -be- - that is, take part in society as - what we are allowed to be by others. Sometimes this is a very, very good thing. Sometimes it's an easy way to inflict incredible cruelty upon others. Trans people are only allowed to actually -be- who they are when they are treated as they are by others; this is the entire reason why it's such a big deal when people gender us correctly. It's such a tiny gesture but it's a stable platform upon which we can stand.

But that's true of a lot of self-beliefs, surely?
Absolutely. I don't claim there's anything magical going on here; just that it hurts when people say you aren't real.

Learning the Rules of Gendered Presentation is hard
Surely that flies in the face of the idea of innate gender, doesn't it? If a person feels like a woman because (insert feminine stereotype) then what is there to learn? Genuine question.
Genuine question, genuine answer: Feminine stereotypes - gender stereotypes in general - are utter trash, and that's been clear to me for as long as I've been able to understand that girls aren't, in fact, made of sugar and spice and all things nice. So, about...hm. Four years old? I've always played with whatever toys I wanted to; worn whatever I wanted to (apart from when trying to make sure the GIC gatekeepers to put me on the surgery referral pathway); acted in whatever ways felt natural and appropriate without causing harm. There are a whole set of skills we do learn in order to navigate the corridors of the vast cultural edifice that is gendered expression, but while they seem to come a little easier to some than others, I've never found it particularly difficult to understand that they're just that - learned behaviours. I've trained myself to behave in certain ways in order to navigate without incident, and had some excellent guides in this regard. Does gender identity contain innate stereotyped behaviours? If so, I certainly didn't get the memo. I just know what it feels like to experience dysphoria due to perceived incongruence.

what right do other people have to claim something that's yours; how dare they appropriate your experiences as their own
Well, quite. And the answer usually seems to be "because I would be very sad otherwise". But we don't accept it as a reason to "identify into" other characteristics, so what is different about your own particular sadness that means society should play along? I don't say that to be mean, just asking the question with regard to the logic of it.
It's interesting that you've taken a different stance regarding this statement to others. You're correct - I would be sad if people didn't treat me in ways that align with my own understanding of myself. Boohoohoo if people want to ride roughshod over that on the internet then I'll just...go back to living my life as I have done for decades, I suppose. Sure is great to have that option. Would be really unpleasant not to. Wonder if there is something we can do to help people who don't?

be polite enough to not dehumanise me and cast me as a duplicitous, dangerous predator
This I can't accept. If you happen to be born male, and humans born male are statistically more dangerous, then mitigations put in place to manage that risk aren't personal. Most men accept this. Nobody on this thread has called you a predator.
Nobody on -this thread- has done this, -on this thread-. Shall we take a look at wider internet culture for a moment? Or read the papers?
On second thoughts, I value my sanity and would like to enjoy the rest of my evening.

So because some people elsewhere think trans people are evil , you insist that we can't treat you as belonging to the class male

It's pretty clear that the stereotype of the logical male is just a stereotype

Thank you Kiera, I admire your grit.

There are a whole set of skills we do learn in order to navigate the corridors of the vast cultural edifice that is gendered expression, but while they seem to come a little easier to some than others, I've never found it particularly difficult to understand that they're just that - learned behaviours. I've trained myself to behave in certain ways in order to navigate without incident, and had some excellent guides in this regard.
What skills, though? What are the Rules of Gendered Presentation, and why do you need to learn them? I thought the behaviours and preferences and mannerisms etc were what identified gender incongruence. Are you saying that for you it was just a feeling of physical incongruence? That's a minority position at the moment, because gender is supposedly innate and the sexed body irrelevant to internal gender.

You're correct - I would be sad if people didn't treat me in ways that align with my own understanding of myself.
You haven't understood me, I was asking why you think gender identity/transition status/ transgender status/ self-identifying as the opposite sex (delete as required) is accommodated but other self-beliefs are not. Why do you think that is?

Shall we take a look at wider internet culture for a moment? Or read the papers?
Are they talking about you? Why are you internalising this? If a butch lesbian serial killer was running around on the loose it would be no reflection on me. The fact that there are predatory transwomen, and predatory men who pose as transwomen, means that discussions around safety are going to happen. It's a pain to have to submit to background checks for work, but I don't take that personally. Why should you? And on balance the majority of content about trans issues is either neutral or positive.

There are a whole set of skills we do learn in order to navigate the corridors of the vast cultural edifice that is gendered expression, but while they seem to come a little easier to some than others, I've never found it particularly difficult to understand that they're just that - learned behaviours. I've trained myself to behave in certain ways in order to navigate without incident

When you say 'we' learn, I presume you're talking about trans people. Or do you think we all learn 'gendered expression'? What sort of behaviour are you talking about? Can you give some examples?

Butterfly I admire the way you have attempted to engage and discuss in what can probably feel like an intimidating forum, and I'm sorry for your struggles.

However I really want to further explore some things you have said (I hope this doesn't come across as nitpicking, but precision is really important in these nuanced discussions).

I know it's already been pointed out, but the use of the term HRT to refer to cross sex hormones really pisses most women off. I think that's because it feels like casual appropriation and trivialisation of an unpleasant experience that all natal women (and no natal men) go through - menopause. Many of us struggle to get our symptoms taken seriously and addressed, or to be prescribed actual hormone replacement therapy. We are constantly being told by the trans lobby that words are really important and that choosing the wrong ones equates to violence - we respectfully ask that this importance goes both ways and you stop referring to your CSH as HRT - as you've already been asked to do.

I understand that you personally might not be trying to say that your experiences are the same as a natal woman's, but then you go on to say that you want to be believed, that your experience of womanhood is real. This could be poor phrasing, but you seem really articulate so I'll assume it's what you actually meant. I mean this in all kindness but you have not experienced womanhood; you have experienced transwomanhood. It gets really wearing trying to explain why our experiences are different. Not better or worse or necessarily harder, but different, and therefore our struggles need addressing differently. This is one reason why we argue that trans and non trans women are not a homogenous group (which I see you agree with, but I then don't understand what you mean by your 'experience of womanhood', as distinct from simply 'your experience').

Similarly, you spoke earlier of your frustration of being silenced. Of not being heard. About fear of violence because of who you are. I was with you until you appeared to suggest that we don't know what that feels like. Every. Single. Day. Its naive, blinkered, self focused and insulting, and that's why women are angry - not necessarily with you, but with this situation we find ourselves in due to the insistence by some that TWAW (in every case, in every situation, no exceptions) and are more oppressed than us mere natal women who couldn't possibly understand prejudice and sexism. The analogy with infertile women was particularly crass, and also a straw man - no one has said fertility makes one a woman.

As I say, I'm not intending to have a go at you - you seem more self aware and willing to engage than most who post here and I wish you well. But I hope you won't mind me highlighting that your empathy for our struggles has a bit of a way to go, and that this is what feels like unwelcome appropriation of women's lived experience and is therefore what draws hostile responses.

Trans people are only allowed to actually -be- who they are when they are treated as they are by others; this is the entire reason why it's such a big deal when people gender us correctly. It's such a tiny gesture but it's a stable platform upon which we can stand.

Look, there is no such thing as 'being who you are'. It's a meaningless, trite phrase that has no actual basis in reality. I would suggest, gently, that if your wellbeing is predicated on how others see you and treat you, you are setting yourself up for a lot of grief.

'be who you are' - indeed. Forget other people's perceptions. Forget trying to manipulate them or convince them. If there's one place that kind of thing just doesn't work, it's on the FWR board of Mumsnet.

Also interesting that you have so far failed to notice the hurt and offense of several women here, regards your offensive comments about infertility. Nor asked a single question of women. The focus is entirely on you, isn't it?

Right, I've taken up more than enough time and space on this thread and I think that's about all the goodwill exhausted. While I've simply tried to answer questions asked as best I am able, I think we're at the point where we're going beyond personal historical experiences of the safety and efficacy of puberty blockers in adolescence and onto being prompted to elaborate further on things that are starting to inherently cause upset and offence and so I shall recuse myself now.

Thanks all for the (mostly) good humour. I wasn't expecting to make it as long as this. Hopefully you learned something! I certainly did - and this has very much reinforced my belief that it's both possible and worthwhile to have constructive discussions about transness on mumsnet.

If anyone has any further questions, you're welcome to message me privately or invite me into a new thread - I'd really prefer to keep discussion to experiences and facts and away from philosophical stances that are only going to serve to antagonise, but either way, I'm not going to go anywhere I'm not welcome.

Have a good evening!

So to summarise:

• You said you had had no negative effects from puberty blockers but were told at the time about issues with bone density and you describe your health as precarious as a result of oestrogen and have been on multiple medications as a result

• Despite you attending the clinic, you were treated in a way that you viewed as gaslighting while the realities of biology were made clear to you. This mental health aspect was not treated and led to ongoing problems in your 20s.

• You wrote there was an awkward question about impaired sexual function and fertility while you were in your mid teens and believe, thinking in retrospect you were able to consent. This is now being expected of children as young as 10 or 11. As a point of contrast, much of the narrative of I Am Jazz has revolved around Jazz’s pursuit of lost libido and sexual function. There’s a whole episode on it.

• No one from GIDS has any idea of any of the long term health issues you have because they haven’t followed up on you or your cohort and as such, they aren’t in a better place to understand.

• you think anyone who raises concerns about females being unable to consent and understand as heartless people who are only interested in their own view of the cosmetics of it all, and that we should probably keep out of it if we don’t have any direct “skin in the game.”

• you’ve talked out your experiences, but haven’t clarified how you think this applies to children aged 10,11, 12 who are being expected to think about these things at their age.

While it’s great you’re comfortable as you are, I find the whole thing incredibly sad. A life of medicalisation, ongoing mental health issues initially, rose tinted glasses about consent around sexual function and fertility is deemed a good outcome because the perceived alternative timeline being worse.

Nothing in your posts has convinced me or even wavered me to think that children should be given puberty blockers. To put it simply, it’s either:

Puberty blockers = Adults with mental health issues + a myriad of irreversible physical health issues to which they couldn’t consent to as children

or

No puberty blockers = adults with mental health issues + a myriad of lesser, more reversible physical health issues to which they can decide to undertake themselves as adults.

The issue still remains around consent. Children under the age of 16 cannot comprehend the future that they’re in for with this medical affirmation, in particular girls whose gender presentation is part of a more complex mental health narrative.

The issue still remains around consent. Children under the age of 16 cannot comprehend the future that they’re in for with this medical affirmation, in particular girls whose gender presentation is part of a more complex mental health narrative.

Agreed - and I have no “horse in this race” but I can still find this message from tictok heartbreaking and awful and a total failure to protect a child. It’s monetised abuse.

twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1434761325628911622

Self-declared lesbian at 8, ‘demi-boy’ at 10. Started ‘puberty blockers’ at 11, testosterone at 13. Underwent a double mastectomy at 15.

Most popular 2 videos are about ‘top surgery’, with a combined 5 million views.
Has 200k followers, and is now getting corporate sponsorships.

in particular girls whose gender presentation is part of a more complex mental health narrative

Eugenics. Girls with autism/ADHD are being brainwashed and then sterilised

It always fascinates me how people find their way onto a female-majority parenting site.

I find it even more fascinating that they expect this feminist board to affirm their identity as a woman, and an infertile one as that.

As an actual infertile woman the second point pisses me off.

As an also infertile woman, I find it very telling that male born ppl take & use female infertility as a gotcha without even a seconds pause at how fucking insulting & hurtful it is to those of us who cannot have children.

I’m still a woman even though I can’t have children, it doesn’t mean I’m the same as a man. I mean really stop & think how fucking unbelievably tone deaf yous have to be to women’s experiences it is to say that