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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Before the Enlightenment the female skeleton didn't exist"

85 replies

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 14/06/2021 20:41

Sally Hines: "Before the Enlightenment the female skeleton didn't exist"

The pure joy of the riposte to this (tweeter reportedly suspended, I don't know for what):

twitter.com/shirleysascot/status/1403949421663039489

via twitter.com/shirleysascot/status/1403949421663039489?s=20

OP posts:
JustcameoutGC · 15/06/2021 06:48

Every day is a learning day on mumsnet. This is a whole sphere I am totally ignorant of. Any podcasts on the history of women?

NecessaryScene · 15/06/2021 06:58

So about 12,000 years or so ago, the general idea was that women had this miraculous power to make new lives. And the life was put into the woman by whatever spirits her tribe believed in. ... Didn't take very long for those early agrarians to understand that male animals and male humans had a role to play in reproduction after all.

Thanks CharlieParley, that's great.

Of course they held onto their one-sex model of reproduction. Instead of thinking of women as life-giving, that was now the man's role. The woman, as previous posters have already said, was now recast as a mere vessel. She made no contribution to the child other than providing a growing environment.

So I guess to call that "one-sex" you have to use this "essence provider" definition of sex, not "reproductive role".

Effectively the "surrogacy" world view, right? You know you need a woman to play a reproductive role - but she doesn't count.

Anyway that makes the point that people had known for thousands of years how reproduction worked in practice - you needed one of each sex - before the Greek Gender Studies departments came along went really batshit channelling their misogyny ("babies could be grown in jars").

The eye rolls of the Greek philosophers' audiences are not on record.

Fantastic theories for justifying nonsensical attitudes and denial of sex, but I think we can be quite confident all patriarchal societies retained full control of their women, rather than relying on jars... Just as all the people seeking surrogates seem to know what a woman is when it matters.

So basically, before the Enlightenment, we had loads of proto-Butlers and Hines and Cohens, spouting the same nonsense for the same basic reasons; everyone knew there were 2 sexes, but the nonsense was used selectively to justify misogyny.

Plus ça change...

CamomileTease · 15/06/2021 07:37

@JustcameoutGC

Every day is a learning day on mumsnet. This is a whole sphere I am totally ignorant of. Any podcasts on the history of women?
I agree, this is absolutely fascinating! Where can I find out more? (reading, listening, watching...)
Itsmemaggie · 15/06/2021 07:45

@CharlieParley that’s fascinating, thank you for going to the trouble of explaining.

ScreamingMeMe · 15/06/2021 07:52

@DdraigGoch

So has Sally Hines inadvertently shown what we all knew? That trans ideology is a return to the Dark Ages.
Bingo!
ErrolTheDragon · 15/06/2021 07:53

The creation story. Man came first in god's image. Woman was to keep him company. Not in god's image, she came from a bit of him. From man but different. Not in god's image. And then she went and fucked it all up. And was punished by having pain in giving birth.

Making Eve from adam's rib is in Genesis 2, which doesn't say anything about Adam being made in God's image, just that he was created from dust.

Genesis 1 has the 'in God's image part':
^ 26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.^

Funny how this idea of both male and female being made in gods image immediately gets rewritten.

highame · 15/06/2021 07:54

Fabulous thread. It's taken me back to my 'women's studies' part of my degree. I was told at the beginning to suspend all thoughts of today because we were going to another planet. It did help with my understanding, and really good to see so much new research in the mix. Thanks very much all of you

NeedNewKnees · 15/06/2021 08:18

Greek Gender Studies departments came along went really batshit channelling their misogyny ("babies could be grown in jars")

The eye rolls of the Greek philosophers' audiences are not on record

Lots of Greek mythology features babies sewn into their father’s calf or swallowed and growing inside him or stored in a jar or in the earth, so I doubt much eye rolling occurred. That theory of Male Is Life-giver is still visible to us in their stories.

This is all fascinating, thank you all so much

borntobequiet · 15/06/2021 08:29

I bet Greek sculptors were pretty clear about the difference between the male and female skeleton/frame.

NecessaryScene · 15/06/2021 08:33

Lots of Greek mythology features babies sewn into their father’s calf or swallowed and growing inside him or stored in a jar or in the earth, so I doubt much eye rolling occurred.

Probably true. The people who would roll their eyes who wouldn't have been at the meetings.

There must have been a disconnect between the layperson's "primitive" male+female breeding concept of sex and the deeper understanding of these experts, who understood all the other ways babies could be made. Grin

Fleek · 15/06/2021 08:41

Sally Hines is such an asset to our cause. I'd love to have the money to fund a billboard campaign - we could get her best quotes up in huge letters for as many people as possible to be exposed to.

It's all so clever and metaphysical isn't it? I say she's got trolling down to a fine art. Say the most ludicrous thing you can think of, make it so outrageous that people question themselves and have to pretend you're right so they don't get publicly exposed as the stupid, ignorant ones. You then get lots of funding to go away and think of more upside down ideas.

Honestly, what a brilliant mind she has. Grin And that cartoon response has made my day.

RoyalCorgi · 15/06/2021 09:17

It is quite an old tweet - we had a discussion about it at the time.

I think Hines is simply using the rather daft postmodernist, Judith Butler-inspired idea that language creates reality rather than the other way around.

NeedNewKnees · 15/06/2021 10:22

@NecessaryScene

Lots of Greek mythology features babies sewn into their father’s calf or swallowed and growing inside him or stored in a jar or in the earth, so I doubt much eye rolling occurred.

Probably true. The people who would roll their eyes who wouldn't have been at the meetings.

There must have been a disconnect between the layperson's "primitive" male+female breeding concept of sex and the deeper understanding of these experts, who understood all the other ways babies could be made. Grin

I think the eye-rollers would be the women, who were largely kept out of public life anyway.
WarriorN · 15/06/2021 10:29

The history of anatomy was inherently sexist.

Possibly till a few years ago when the full size of the clitoris was worked out. Many text books across the world still don't include it.

We are however starting to regress and again deny the female skeleton is anything different to the male, as shown in this year's Olympics.

WarriorN · 15/06/2021 10:30

The history of anatomical illustration is extremely revealing.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/06/2021 10:49

@WarriorN

The history of anatomical illustration is extremely revealing.
Yes. And yet so many people had very useful awareness of general anatomical landmarks and what to expect.

For a long time caesareans helped the baby to survive but killed the mother.

The first recorded case of a mother surviving the surgery was in the 1580s in Siegersausen, Switzerland where Jacob Nufer who was a pig gelder is said to have performed the operation on his wife when her labour was not progressing. The mother survived the operation and went on to have five more successful deliveries naturally.

www.news-medical.net/health/Cesarean-Section-History.aspx

Interesting topic overview in Cesarean Section - A Brief History :

www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/cesarean/index.html

OP posts:
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 15/06/2021 11:45

Brilliant thread. Loving the erudite, informative posts. Thanks WeeBisom, CharlieParley, and all.

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 15/06/2021 12:00

@RoyalCorgi

It is quite an old tweet - we had a discussion about it at the time.

I think Hines is simply using the rather daft postmodernist, Judith Butler-inspired idea that language creates reality rather than the other way around.

I agree. But it's led to that excellent cartoon and this wonderful thread so happy to rehash the discussion.

Hines really is quite special. Next-level trolling.

It does all make me breathe sigh of relief that I never actually took up my place on a postmodern literature MA that I toyed with 25 years ago...I can't imagine what kind of an intellectual quagmire I'd be in now!

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 15/06/2021 12:08

As above, I liked the cartoon and admire people with that creativity and skill - it caught my eye because of the inclusion of Deborah Orr in the recent Sex Matters Respect video.

I wasn't on the previous thread in 2019 so didn't recall it:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3543932-Our-favourite-genderology-professor-from-Leeds-does-it-again?messages=100&pg=1

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 15/06/2021 12:15

Yes, excellent thread. Thank you so much.

I knew smatterings of this, but have learned so much.

WarriorN · 15/06/2021 12:47

Yes. And yet so many people had very useful awareness of general anatomical landmarks and what to expect.

Yes, many women who were midwives and doulas and healers had huge knowledge. But weren't involved in medical research.

Also painted as witches for a time.

ArabellaScott · 15/06/2021 14:05

Fascinating thread, thanks WeeBisom and Charley, I am loving reading all this weird history.

and Grin at the cartoon in the OP.

WomaninBoots · 15/06/2021 14:36

Skipped a few but just want to say that in some non-human animals males will collect and control a group of females. How conscious they are of their reproductive roles is hard to say but surely there's an instinctive, non-verbal understanding of it that pre-dates humanity itself?

donquixotedelamancha · 15/06/2021 21:08

In the pre-Enlightenment era they thought there was one biological sex, male, with different degrees of perfection. Men were perfect males, and women were literally deformed, mutated males.

It's worth pointing out that this is what one Sociologist reckons. It's far from accepted that this is the case. There is evidence to show an anatomical understanding of two sexes in Western Science from the middle ages. There was certainly a good practical understanding of the differences between the sexes even while anatomical knowlege was poor.

It's more reasonable to say that some people put forward a theory that there was only one sex and the variations between men and women were a spectrum of sexual development. This theory was disproved by the medical advances of the enlightenment.

donquixotedelamancha · 15/06/2021 21:10

Judith Butler-inspired idea that language creates reality rather than the other way around.

Actually, that was (sort of) Kant; though he'd be fucking horrified with what Butler et al have done with his ideas.

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