British Cycling Consultation on Transgender Policy

[lorisparkle]

Thought this might be of interest

www.britishcycling.org.uk/about/article/20201009-British-Cycling-publishes-Transgender-and-Non-Binary-Participation-policy-0

[FemaleAndLearning]

Good question Quadzilla*, testosterone is a red herring in my opinion. Males should not be competing in women's sports, post surgical transition or not.

[GonadTheGaul]

@OwningAllMyMistakes

As a full member of British Cycling and British Triathlon and have recently been sent a questionnaire from British Cycling and completed and returned back to British Cycling.
As I was out on an Audax ride today I had time to ponder this dilemma of trans women or men competing in cycling.
In my own opinion on this I don’t believe any trans women should be allowed to compete unless they have had gender confirmation surgery,how anyone would approach this is probably a difficult issue.
And if that’s not possible then any trans women competing would fall into WADA & UKAD testing and this falls into the same for any competitive cyclists.
The issue isn’t for me about trans and advantages as there aren’t any advantages for any trans women in sport as they aren’t likely to gain any sponsorship as let’s remember sponsorship isn’t easy to gain and the media isn’t something trans women would want.
The issue is about riding clean and we only have to look back to the 90s with major championships and titles being won with the advantages of doping and using testosterone and those titles being removed from competitive cyclists.
And think about the state sanctioned female athletes of Eastern Europe who were given testosterone regularly, it’s a damaging hormone and I believe trans women would do anything the effects of it not harness it for mere competition.

How are you defining ‘gender confirming surgery’? Is that facial feminisation surgery, breast implants, penectomy, creation of a neovagina, surgical castration? Assuming you mean surgical castration, this will drop testosterone levels to virtually zero, but so do ‘puberty blockers’ and research has already established that this doesn’t remove the advantages due to previous puberty. The whole concept of removing testosterone from the body either medically or surgically is a red herring, it doesn’t remove the sports performance advantages due to being biologically male and having had the effects of testosterone during puberty.

[Binglebong]

There is considerable evidence of some (by no means all) transwomen who DO want the media attention and sponsorship. Some appear very proud of the fact that they can flaunt taking things away from women who then can't do anything to stop it.

I have noticed several posters have mentioned that transwomen have already benefitted from a male puberty. I an very wary of using this tactic as I believe it will only delay things - in a few years they will say "X took puberty blockers so didn't benefit". My understanding is that some advantages appear prior to puberty (I know little about child development so could be wrong) so that doesn't negate the problem and of course it doesn't touch on the other reasons this is so problematic.

[GonadTheGaul]

@Binglebong

There is considerable evidence of some (by no means all) transwomen who DO want the media attention and sponsorship. Some appear very proud of the fact that they can flaunt taking things away from women who then can't do anything to stop it.

I have noticed several posters have mentioned that transwomen have already benefitted from a male puberty. I an very wary of using this tactic as I believe it will only delay things - in a few years they will say "X took puberty blockers so didn't benefit". My understanding is that some advantages appear prior to puberty (I know little about child development so could be wrong) so that doesn't negate the problem and of course it doesn't touch on the other reasons this is so problematic.

Thanks Binglebong, this is an important point.

Hilton and Lundberg's paper descibes evidence that boys have athletic performance advantages over girls in research done on children aged 6 and 9, although these are less than the differences seen after puberty. A large part of the argument for transwomen being allowed in female sport at the moment centres on lowering testosterone, which sounds very plausible if you don't know it doesn't remove the advantages, which many people don't. The issue of people who have never been through puberty is likely to be another difficulty in making sure sports are fair for everyone.

[Feelinghothothottoday]

My then 9 year old son could run faster than me. Puberty is definitely a red herring.

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

@Feelinghothothottoday

My then 9 year old son could run faster than me. Puberty is definitely a red herring.

Well that makes no sense at all to say that are you a child?or an adult ?kids can run faster than most adults and they tend to be smaller and more agile.
That’s a no brainer comment with no brains 🧠

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

The problem with this argument of Trans Women in sport or cycling is of unfairness biased on discrimination of trans women or men in sport or taking part in sport.
And this argument is based on the very fear that every trans person is some athletic machine going to sweep away awards and steal places from anybody else who competes it’s just not true.
The amount of trans people in sport is very minor compared to that of non trans competitors.
And there is much to be gained from allowing trans people into sport.
The very nature of genetics defines the abilities of sports competitors as well as their strength of mind and their ability to focus.
My argument is that cycling needs to be a level playing field and minimising the testosterone levels to that of an acceptable level which is why increased scrutiny of any trans competitors would need to be done to monitor any spikes in testosterone levels and face the same scrutiny as any other female competitor and the UKADA and WADA can turn up at anyone’s home or hotel for tests year round and if found in contravention of those then no racing it’s as simple as that.

[andyoldlabour]

OwningAllMyMistakes

Our school 100m record, back in the seventies, was .3s quicker than FloJo's current women's World record. The guy who set our school record was 16 and didn't belong to an athletic club. The record was set on a grass track.
You seem to be absolutely clueless about anatomy and physiology.

[Quadzilla]

cycling needs to be a level playing field

Women can’t have a level playing field if males are allowed into their sport.

There’s two issues here for BC: competitive cycling and recreational cycling.
In competitive cycling women/girls will miss out on places in team, sponsorship, podium places and in some instances actually places on the start line if males are allowed into their sport.
Have you heard about Emily Bridges? Their case neatly focussed this issue.

As for recreational cycling, most everyday cycling should be inclusive to everyone regardless of their sex or their identity. However there are some instances where BC is actively encouragingly more women to cycle. In these initiatives they acknowledge that women only rides are a more friendly place for women and therefore lawfully discriminate against males joining in. However this policy now says anyone who indentifies as female can join a women only ride. Do you see how contradictory that is? And who it discriminated against?

[IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk]

And this argument is based on the very fear that every trans person is some athletic machine going to sweep away awards and steal places from anybody else who competes it’s just not true..

Have you actually read any of this thread? Clearly not by your post.

Training will mitigate any minor loss in performance from suppressing testosterone so that as a pp says I’d a complete red herring and quite shocking that the IOC has been hoodwinked into using it as a standard.

Re your other point just check out Rachel McKinnon. A mediocre athlete not born female but dominating the female competition. Every place in a women’s team taken by someone not born female is a missed opportunity for a woman, even if it is the bottom spot.

We have sex segregated sports for a very good reason.

[GonadTheGaul]

@OwningAllMyMistakes

The problem with this argument of Trans Women in sport or cycling is of unfairness biased on discrimination of trans women or men in sport or taking part in sport.
And this argument is based on the very fear that every trans person is some athletic machine going to sweep away awards and steal places from anybody else who competes it’s just not true.
The amount of trans people in sport is very minor compared to that of non trans competitors.
And there is much to be gained from allowing trans people into sport.
The very nature of genetics defines the abilities of sports competitors as well as their strength of mind and their ability to focus.
My argument is that cycling needs to be a level playing field and minimising the testosterone levels to that of an acceptable level which is why increased scrutiny of any trans competitors would need to be done to monitor any spikes in testosterone levels and face the same scrutiny as any other female competitor and the UKADA and WADA can turn up at anyone’s home or hotel for tests year round and if found in contravention of those then no racing it’s as simple as that.

Minimising testosterone levels doesn't create a level playing field as the research shows, that is exactly why it doesn't work. Nobody is saying transgender people shouldn't be competing in sport, just that they need to be able to compete in a fair competition, as do all athletes. Having transwomen in female sports competitions is not fair, they should be able to compete in a category which is fair to them and to other competitors.

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

I feel I spend a lot of time posting this. It’s not about testosterone, it’s about a whole load of things

People born male however they present do not belong in women’s sports. No one is stopping them participating in sport, they can participate with people of their own sex

[AlecTrevelyan006]

the question should be: ​'what is more important to you - being a woman or being a (competitive) cyclist?'

[jellyfrizz]

@OwningAllMyMistakes

The problem with this argument of Trans Women in sport or cycling is of unfairness biased on discrimination of trans women or men in sport or taking part in sport.
And this argument is based on the very fear that every trans person is some athletic machine going to sweep away awards and steal places from anybody else who competes it’s just not true.
The amount of trans people in sport is very minor compared to that of non trans competitors.
And there is much to be gained from allowing trans people into sport.
The very nature of genetics defines the abilities of sports competitors as well as their strength of mind and their ability to focus.
My argument is that cycling needs to be a level playing field and minimising the testosterone levels to that of an acceptable level which is why increased scrutiny of any trans competitors would need to be done to monitor any spikes in testosterone levels and face the same scrutiny as any other female competitor and the UKADA and WADA can turn up at anyone’s home or hotel for tests year round and if found in contravention of those then no racing it’s as simple as that.

It is not just current testosterone that gives males advantages. This podcast explains the research and rationale behind World Rugby's decision to not allow trans women to compete in female international teams:

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/why-rugbys-controversial-new-transgender-guidelines/id1461719225?i=1000497073938

[Tamingofthehamster]

Re the IOC -the committee that came up with the guidance in 2015 consisted of 20 people - 14 men, 4 women, 1 transgender woman and 1 Intersex woman ( also XY - who from google, sounds as though she had quite a traumatic time when it was discovered).

So it seems very unfair that lots of sporting bodies are just blindly following the IOC. Even seeing the Martina programme on trans women in women’s sports -you can disagree with it totally, but if you like them as a person it is very hard to say it to their face.
You can feel pity for the position transwomen are in, but that pity does not justify letting them into women’s events.

[GonadTheGaul]

The 2015 IOC guidance seems to be based partly or mostly on some methodologically poor research by Joanna Harper looking at 8 trans athletes running times pre and post transition. Half the data could not be verified, there was no control group, the pre to post transition period was between 1 and 29 years and the results of one runner who got faster after transition were removed from the analysis.

Harper has now published a more up to date and much better quality study showing that transwomen have performance advantages that are not negated by lowering testosterone. The findings agree with those in Hilton and Lundberg’s paper. The IOC need to take this evidence on board now and update their guidelines to keep female sports for athletes born female only.

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

@AlecTrevelyan006

the question should be: ​'what is more important to you - being a woman or being a (competitive) cyclist?'

You can be both and neither is in direct conflict of the other

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

And this argument is based on the very fear that every trans person is some athletic machine going to sweep away awards and steal places from anybody else who competes it’s just not true..

Have you actually read any of this thread? Clearly not by your post.

Training will mitigate any minor loss in performance from suppressing testosterone so that as a pp says I’d a complete red herring and quite shocking that the IOC has been hoodwinked into using it as a standard.

Re your other point just check out Rachel McKinnon. A mediocre athlete not born female but dominating the female competition. Every place in a women’s team taken by someone not born female is a missed opportunity for a woman, even if it is the bottom spot.

We have sex segregated sports for a very good reason.

A mediocre athlete not born female does not make an exceptional female athlete against mediocre competition.
But if Rachael McKinnon’s testosterone levels weren’t in line of the other competitors then there is every reason to be raising objections.
What’s not to say that Ms McKinnon had a superior bike and better commitment should the governing bodies allow a handicap for the women who may have busy home lives or children.
If that was the case then what about personal commitment to the sport maybe they didn’t train enough or commit enough time.
There maybe other reasons why Ms McKinnon won and I don’t believe it’s because she is superior due to being trans.

[Biscuitsanddoombar]

RM is faster because they were born male, went through male puberty & therefore have a greater heart & lung capacity, longer & stronger bones, and better twitch muscle powers

But you know all this

[IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk]

There maybe other reasons why Ms McKinnon won and I don’t believe it’s because she is superior due to being trans.

Agree, it’s not because Rachel is trans, it is because Rachel was born male (otherwise couldn’t be regarded as trans). The IOC testosterone limits allow competitors born male to have levels of 10 nmol/l. The normal range for women is 1.7-3nmol/l. Interestingly most women (there may be super rare exceptions but I’m not aware of any) would have to be doping to achieve that level but that wouldn’t be allowed.

As I have pointed out before the effects of testosterone suppression can be mitigated by training (so will have zero effect on performance). A male body has greater heart/lung capacity, more fast twitch muscle fibre and other significant physical attributes that would make them faster than a woman.

I am quite amazed that you suggest that Rachel may have won because they had a better bike and better commitment!! Have I read your comment correctly??

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

@IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk

There maybe other reasons why Ms McKinnon won and I don’t believe it’s because she is superior due to being trans.

Agree, it’s not because Rachel is trans, it is because Rachel was born male (otherwise couldn’t be regarded as trans). The IOC testosterone limits allow competitors born male to have levels of 10 nmol/l. The normal range for women is 1.7-3nmol/l. Interestingly most women (there may be super rare exceptions but I’m not aware of any) would have to be doping to achieve that level but that wouldn’t be allowed.

As I have pointed out before the effects of testosterone suppression can be mitigated by training (so will have zero effect on performance). A male body has greater heart/lung capacity, more fast twitch muscle fibre and other significant physical attributes that would make them faster than a woman.

I am quite amazed that you suggest that Rachel may have won because they had a better bike and better commitment!! Have I read your comment correctly??

Yes you did read my post correctly, I don’t think this can be used as one size fits all reasoning in claiming that she was born male and that’s the reason why she won I just don’t agree with it.
If that is the case then other cyclists would always lose against male competitors.
Nicole Cooke in her cycling career competed against male riders and beat them how is that correct if all women can do against men is lose, just because of their birth of being male.

Using Ms McKinnon’s win is easy as this go to example but this doesn’t say much about the losing of the other 2 competitors.
If her testosterone levels were higher and not in line with regulations then that’s a question for the UCI and British cycling to answer.

[OwningAllMyMistakes]

@Biscuitsanddoombar

RM is faster because they were born male, went through male puberty & therefore have a greater heart & lung capacity, longer & stronger bones, and better twitch muscle powers

But you know all this

Not correct not all males have greater heart and lungs capacity and if so it’s training that harnesses this to a degree and as far as fast twitch muscle fibres that’s also not correct just for being born male.
Ms McKinnon isn’t some super trans athlete and she’s not going to win all the time

[Jobsharenightmare]

I can't see when the consultation opens OP? The preview version is still showing so although it can be completed it doesn't save the data.

[NotBadConsidering]

I have never seen it explained what qualified McKinnon as at that time, or continues to qualify Ivy for women’s competition.

[NiceGerbil]

God men are so obsessed with testosterone aren't they.

A woman is not the same as a man with low testosterone. Jesus.

Since the ancient Greeks women have been seen as... Like men but crapper.

DH has v low testosterone. We don't know why. He's getting treatment on the NHS. He's over 6 foot, used to play rugby, and is built like a tank. Everything is functional.

He's a woman?

Think about what you're saying.

The only difference between men and women is the magic hormone that makes men into REAL MEN.

male centric dick centric bollocks.