My Name Is Anna. I've been called a terf - is the BBC starting to permit open discussion?

[nauticant]

On at 11 this morning (Monday) on Radio 4:

My Name Is Anna. I've been called a terf

My Name Is...Anna is branded a terf – a byword for transphobia. She rejects the label and goes in search of solutions to some of the thorny issues around trans inclusion.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s1rr

@CranberriesChoccyAgain Indeed!

@IsThePopeCatholic - completely agree and it must be hard to watch the potential undoing on behalf of a very small cohort. I was born at the tail end of the 70's but due to having lived experience of rape, domestic abuse, pregnancy based illness, pregnancy loss, a gynaelogical disease and parenting boys I have kind of had my hand forced in terms of radical feminism, from a trauma based perspective. Safe spaces and the debate around it dismays me, it really does. It feels regressive.

People who menstruate but can't get pregnant. People who get pregnant but can't chestfeed. People who used to have a cervix but don't any more. People who carry a baby but don't parent it

More fundamentally advertising services for "people with cervixes" and "people with a uterus" results in a reduction in uptake from disadvantaged women. The doctor might be comfortable with "more inclusive" language but it doesn't help their patients if it results in itheir exclusion from services.

When our main local hospital changed its Obs and Gynae department name to "Women's health department and services" and focused their advertising on that terminology, the uptake from women in poor, immigrant and other disadvantaged groups increased significantly.

Nobody seems to give a shit about these women and I was disappointed that Anna didn't pick up that point on language. Its also amazingi that the male equivalent advertising still consistently talks about "men's health" with impunity.

I haven't had the chance to listen, but if someone somewhere in the BBC is actually listening then it's a start. Bloody long way to go, though. Every time I use BBC iplayer there's drag being thrust in my face. Until someone there understands how insulting it feels we're in trouble.

I didn't listen to the show. I'm having a brief pause from this at the moment as I'm feeling overwhelmed, exhausted and a bit defeatist about it all - which is very out of character for me. Will be back into the swing of things again soon but at the moment I'm so utterly frustrated by it all.

From what I can see, it started out with a conversation about how gender is different from biological sex. OK, happy to roll with that. If we're saying that's about respecting how someone wants to present themselves and how they feel, that's fine.

But then somewhere along the way, people forgot that this was a discussion about gender not sex, and the boundaries blurred to bring biological sex back into it. Phrases such as "people who menstruate" lit the torch paper because female and woman were relating to biological sex functions, and as such, should have been left intact.

After insisting for so long that we must respect everyone to have their own gender, biological sex has been swept back up with it, distorting the issue and eradicating our biological identity.

I think as society we have very big questions to answer about how we protect trans folk, and ensure their rights, especially transwomen. But at the same time the answer isn't just to expect bio women to roll over and accept that the rights of biological men are more important than theirs. Immediately being slammed for being transphobic for daring to question how we manage this is beyond frustrating.

The OU professor said the way forward in this discussion is for all of us to believe that transwomen are women because they're speaking the truth about their lived experience.

I do believe that many transwomen have an internal sense of self that tells them they are women and that it's a very real belief to them and core to their sense of who they are, in much the same way that I believe Christians have a genuine faith in Jesus being the Messiah and their personal saviour. I don't have to share those faiths to believe both groups are (mostly) speaking the truth about their experience, and that they should have the right to live according to their beliefs, up to the point where they make political demands that impact on other groups, at which point there has to be dialogue and resolution. Thankfully we no longer insist on adherence to any religious doctrine in the UK. I don't think the professor has any right to insist on adherence to gender identity ideology either.

Also what I find very interesting is that it's only the female biological sex which is primarily attacked.

One of the radical trans organisations posted about "people who are raped" - a piece about women being raped without actually ever using the word woman etc.

They then also posted another article about "male rape" and men being raped. No issue using the word "man" or references to biological males whatsoever.

It's not OK to have an identity as a biological woman, but it's fine for men. Gotcha.

@doublehalo

Off topic but can I just say that BoreofWhabylon is one of the best user names I've seen on Mumsnet.

Made me laugh out loud today so thanks BoreofWhabylon

I think as society we have very big questions to answer about how we protect trans folk, and ensure their rights, especially transwomen.

Why 'especially transwomen'? What makes you think that the rights of 'transwomen' are more likely to be lost than those of 'transmen'?

@morningtoncrescent62 - I think that is very nicely put

[quote nauticant]Meanwhile, this is how it was perceived in TRA circles:

twitter.com/mlothianmclean/status/1358735531744575488[/quote]
"these shows on major platforms need challenging. They do bring on 'dissenting' voices but they're extremely tempered and the entire thing is set up as a "debate" in the first place."

As though 'debate' was a dirty word...

Bitmuch thank you reminding us of the horrendous atrocity committed by A TW on the lesbian couple and their son. No wonder lesbians and other women are worried about separate spaces which include men. Is there any up to date news on what happened? I really really hope he is in a male prison, though the Gallup piece suggests not.

The OU professor said the way forward in this discussion is for all of us to believe that transwomen are women because they're speaking the truth about their lived experience.

And so are female people, who say that being biologically female is not the same as a male person who identifies as a woman, and that females continue to need some spaces and language and identity that is just theirs.

It's meaningless wittering about lived experience unless it's reciprocal. Otherwise it's just yet more me male, me superior, gimme.

What an abysmal apolitical pathetic programme. I know its the BBC but why if you are going to look at this issue do you let someone who apparently has no politcal background, thinks what happens in America is what is important.

I am getting increasing frustrated with the inability of contemporary comentary to move beyond the I, me, my feelings, way of examing what is happening. Or worse still, isn't even based on self reflection but is just some mish mash of the irrelevant ramblings on the internet.

There have been three recent SM articles about the Feminist Library that have equally been based on nothing more than chit chat and gossip with no understanding of the issues.

I am coming to the conclusion that the education system and affirmative parenting has created a complete divide that is in fact going to be along age. (Interestingly the older trans woman interviewed had a better understanding that the interviewer.)

But what this amounts to is another of the building blocks that the mainstream are putting together to create an alternative reality.

How can you discuss an issue when you are already captured by the thought process and insular relationship to the world.

Where were the interviews with women who are actually practicing feminism ie women working in refuges and rape crisis centres.

She didn't even refer to sex discrimination.

No wonder its is one step forward and three steps back.

Cant even call it a complete sell out.

It was an excrutiating presentation of the new reality of young people who have gone through the gender queer education now taught in schools and colleges, so that the interviewer wasn't even aware that on one level she was as trapped in that artificial construction as the brave me self subserviant "cis" woman reeling of her well rehearsed perfected litany of double speak. (Note the deliberate non mention of sex but trying to mis direct by talking about gender identity and gender experience.) Any decent interviewer would have challenged that gobbledy gook.

Quite honestly am beginning to think women have lost. Future generations will just be a sub set of men.

There will be no sex discrimination because sex wont exist.

And it wont be the patriarchy. It will be the passive acceptance of the spoon fed weasel words spread by the universities and the media.

@OldCrone I was referencing from a safety perspective. As a very wide generalisation, no-one seems particularly bothered by trans men - if we are ignoring the issues that GC women are raising. I mean society as a whole - attacks seem far more prevalent on trans women. I’ve read quite a bit on the subject - TW are subjected to pretty horrible abuse and there have been numerous instances of attacks. Straight men seem to be the issue - in the same way gay men were (and still are to some extent) attacked by straight men who feel threatened, trans women are now. Trans men don’t seem to be subjected to the same levels of bullying and aggression.

However furious I am about the erosion of my biological sex, I accept that trans women also don’t feel safe at times. I don’t have solutions but I do think it’s important that just because I’m firmly in the GC camp, I don’t lose sight of the fact that we need to make sure TW are safe and protected too. Not at the expense of my safety or rights though, obviously. Most people accept that women are more vulnerable at times and need safe spaces. I don’t think it’s a reach to understand that the same applies for trans folk, particularly trans women although I accept some trans men may feel like this too. Toxic masculinity is at the root of the safety problem.

[quote BitMuch]OU professor SG Chappell did a great job at NAMALTing . . .

Said "I pass myself if I don't speak". Photographed here
eicsp.org/events/event-details/784-an-evening-with-prof-sophie-grace-chappell-18-june-2020[/quote]
I don’t want to be rude but...

TW are subjected to pretty horrible abuse and there have been numerous instances of attacks. Straight men seem to be the issue - in the same way gay men were (and still are to some extent) attacked by straight men who feel threatened, trans women are now.

Gay men are still attacked, and the reason that 'transwomen' are attacked is due to the same homophobia - they are perceived as gay men (and those who are attracted to men are gay males, even though they 'identify' differently).

Trans men don’t seem to be subjected to the same levels of bullying and aggression.

Well, they're treated like other female people, which includes being in danger of being raped. Being female most of them are also smaller than the average man, so suffer from the same disadvantage as other female people when it comes to fighting off attackers.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15596180.transgender-victim-glad-reported-north-east-rape/

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/transgender-sex-assault-winnipeg-taxi-1.3603515

I honestly can't see male people as being more vulnerable than female people, no matter how they identify.

Toxic masculinity is at the root of the safety problem.

I can't argue with that.

...the new reality of young people

It is not necessarily or even particularly our education system that is creating this mind set amongst young women. It is social media and the creative industries. And well meaning liberal governments (eg Canada).

You can't turn around for coming across a news story or Netflix film or series or YouTube channel on a 'coming of age' story about the trans community and an affirmative celebration approach. It feels to be an unquestioned part of being a young liberal these days.

My own DD watches Jamie Dodger and it is hard work trying to present any different reality, to question what is really meant by someone 'living as a women' in order to self identify, or question the validity of a teenager just 'knowing' in light of other older teens / young adults who detransition later.

It would be really helpful if anyone could suggest someone who posts on a YouTube channel with a GC view to provide an alternative view. That I could suggest watching as food for thought.

@DrBlackbird

Try ArtyMorty

I'm going to relisten later as I was busy while listening. Did they mention the triple homicide of two Michfest attending lesbian women and their son by a Camp Trans attendee? www.gendertrending.com/2019/08/13/media-blackout-on-dana-rivers-michfest-murder-trial/

no mention of that @BitMuch**

I wonder if it was cut by the editors. That kind of male pattern violence/intimidation/harassment is a large part of why women want and need the choice of female only festivals, so it seems essential to mention when talking about Michfest trying to stay for women only. The details of the case are horrific but all too familiar in terms of male violence. Pretty much every single other festival is unisex but that wasn't enough.

So many women and girls are excluded from festivals because of the risk of rape, drugging, groping and harassment committed by males www.vice.com/en/article/ywmmeg/theres-a-rape-epidemic-at-music-festivals-and-nobody-seems-to-care. I've heard such awful stories about festivals, like a group of young men laughing about a drugged girl they watched their friend sexually assaulting and how she died drowned face down in the mud shortly after. I was very young when I overheard that and it's never left me. How much joy those male festival-goers got from the total destruction of a girl and how the men who weren't there laughed along with them. I don't think that would have happened at a female only festival but some male egos might have been hurt instead.

I'm sure a lot of people listening will have noticed the inequality in who was walking on eggshells and losing their provisions and who was asking to be given everything from the others with no complaint tolerated, or else. How one group of people are getting threatened for talking at all about their needs and reality, however polite and common sense they are. While other people, according to Jamie, shouldn't be "villanised" for making death and rape threats.

Sorry, fair play to Anna for trying, but that was bullshit. It was entirely about trans hurt feelings. For the uninitiated, who cannot see the wood from the trees because they don't know all the terminology, the history, the disgusting abuse online, the silencing of women - their take away from that would have been, first and foremost, trans people are sensitive, not that women need their own spaces.

How about interviewing some people brandished "terf" and why they want sex segregated spaces? How about speaking to someone involved with Michfest who didn't want trans women present, and ask them why.

I wanted to here more from the transsexual person who formed the breakaway festival for trans people, but subsequently felt uncomfortable with the pre-op people joining in. Why is that then? What do they think of the current movement and all encompassing trans umbrella?

How about speaking to some inter-sex people and how they feel about being drawn into it?

Sorry, but my takeaway from that was, terfs are unreasonable, and need to listen a bit more to hurty feelz. Bollocks to that.

@unmarkedbythat

My name is Laura. For not being on the 'gender critical' side of this debate I regularly get called a handmaiden.

Still got a job though...

I am getting increasing frustrated with the inability of contemporary comentary to move beyond the I, me, my feelings, way of examing what is happening.

Interesting fly on the wall documentary

My name is Laura. For not being on the 'gender critical' side of this debate I regularly get called a handmaiden.

And? Women who are gender critical get all manner of abuse and threats. You don't support women who are standing up for women and girls. What do you expect, a round of applause?

@DrBlackbird - yes my teen DS is full TWAW. Had a discussion about it recently, he really believes that the pro-women position is just transphobia. I discussed and sent him some links, and will continue to discuss, but it seems quite an entrenched teen position. I feel like he has been brainwashed. I'm dreading him going to university now in some ways. (See the treatment dished our to Raquel Rosario Sánchez at Bristol University by her fellow students).