My Name Is Anna. I've been called a terf - is the BBC starting to permit open discussion?

[nauticant]

On at 11 this morning (Monday) on Radio 4:

My Name Is Anna. I've been called a terf

My Name Is...Anna is branded a terf – a byword for transphobia. She rejects the label and goes in search of solutions to some of the thorny issues around trans inclusion.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s1rr

[DeaconBoo]

Looks sarky to me...

[ThumbWitchesAbroad]

And finally we're there - we have a TRA who has announced that "There is no such thing as a woman"
twitter.com/transwomyn/status/1360295188086816768

[CranberriesChoccyAgain]

Regarding male violence towards TW, I struggle to see how the TWAW mantra addresses that. Are we to believe that a violent man who would assault a TW wouldn't do so if we only repeated their mantra enough times. Is he somehow less likely to assault a woman than a man identifying as a woman? Why would this be so? Are GC feminists supposed to police male behaviour? Are violent men going to stop being violent on our say so?

Berating, assaulting, and threatening women who don't buy into the ideology is not about transgender safety concerns. It's about control of our language, our dignity, and our spaces.

[TitOfTheIceberg]

just because I’m firmly in the GC camp, I don’t lose sight of the fact that we need to make sure TW are safe and protected too.

Why is it women's responsibility to protect male bodied persons from male violence?

I don't see many TW advocating for an end to male violence on natal women. In fact on SM the trend seems to be quite the reverse; too many of them are happy to threaten it. So pardon me if I believe that it's up to men, however they choose to present, to sort out the issues relating to their sex in the same way women have had to over the decades. Happy to be an ally once they get some momentum going but not at the expense of women's rights, women's safety, women's dignity, women's privacy or women's spaces.

[stumbledin]

Thank merrymouse

Obviously the mockumentary training session from 4 years ago has been a total sucess.

I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

There is no reality any more.

Social media content as the reference point for actual reporting means we can now all create our own reality.

But somehow women are still not able to define and control their reality. The have to live and subject themselves to other peoples.

[nauticant]

Trans men don’t seem to be subjected to the same levels of bullying and aggression.

I suspect they under-report even more than women who don't claim a tran identity.

[saynotofondant]

Re transwomen being more vulnerable -

Transmen have higher lifetime rates of sexual assault than transwomen. At least in the US.

Data from the 2015 US Transgender Survey:

58% NB AFABS, 51% transmen, 37% transwomen

It's figure 15.16, page 205. transequality.org/sites/default/files/docs/usts/USTS-Full-Report-Dec17.pdf

[doublehalo]

[quote NeedToKnow101]@DrBlackbird - yes my teen DS is full TWAW. Had a discussion about it recently, he really believes that the pro-women position is just transphobia. I discussed and sent him some links, and will continue to discuss, but it seems quite an entrenched teen position. I feel like he has been brainwashed. I'm dreading him going to university now in some ways. (See the treatment dished our to Raquel Rosario Sánchez at Bristol University by her fellow students). [/quote]
Does he realise he will be including them in his dating pool. The odd few who aren't lesbians that is.

[NeedToKnow101]

Everything that shines a light on the issue is being framed on MSM as Trans Rights, rather than women's rights. It's really damaging isn't it? And it is constant now. Women: STFU.

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

@OldCrone I don't disagree with any of the points you've made. I've probably just been a bit clumsy with how I'm expressing myself as I'm trying to do about five things and not paying enough attention! 😅

The point I was making about trans women being more vulnerable was more specifically that they're at risk of attack because of their trans status - because of all the reasons you describe.

The point about transmen not being attacked was meant that their trans presence isn't viewed with such offence by men. Anecdotally, and from all the research I've seen, there seems to be less objection to TM from bio men. They don't seem to view TM as an assault on their masculinity in the same way that they do with TW. But of course, that doesn't mean that TM aren't still vulnerable in all the other ways that a female-bodied person would be. I was literally just referring to the risk from a trans perspective. I completely accept the point you're making about TM still being as vulnerable as women because they are smaller, weaker etc. I appreciate my post probably seemed short-sighted in that regard so apologies for that. I think we actually share the same views, I just didn't explain myself properly or reference the wider issues, which I should have done.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

I'm pretty sure whoever called you a handmaiden didn't threaten to rape or murder you Laura. And that your views don't risk you being punched or kerb stomped, or arrested.

[DrBlackbird]

Thanks Cranberries I'll have a look too.

I'm feeling the same NeedToKnow with my teen DD. It feels like her generation are handing over their rights in a kind and generous gifting of good intentions without understanding the wider implications. The most successful campaign ever. Have to say that I was astounded to read that the majority of TW do not have surgery, which I had assumed would be the norm. My DD made the same assumptions. Have to say that these threads have opened my eyes.

[NeedToKnow101]

@DrBlackbird - yes my teen DS is full TWAW. Had a discussion about it recently, he really believes that the pro-women position is just transphobia. I discussed and sent him some links, and will continue to discuss, but it seems quite an entrenched teen position. I feel like he has been brainwashed. I'm dreading him going to university now in some ways. (See the treatment dished our to Raquel Rosario Sánchez at Bristol University by her fellow students).

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

My name is Laura. For not being on the 'gender critical' side of this debate I regularly get called a handmaiden.

And? Women who are gender critical get all manner of abuse and threats. You don't support women who are standing up for women and girls. What do you expect, a round of applause?

[merrymouse]

I am getting increasing frustrated with the inability of contemporary comentary to move beyond the I, me, my feelings, way of examing what is happening.

Interesting fly on the wall documentary

[Abhannmor]

@unmarkedbythat

My name is Laura. For not being on the 'gender critical' side of this debate I regularly get called a handmaiden.

Still got a job though...

[BlueCatRedCat]

Sorry, fair play to Anna for trying, but that was bullshit. It was entirely about trans hurt feelings. For the uninitiated, who cannot see the wood from the trees because they don't know all the terminology, the history, the disgusting abuse online, the silencing of women - their take away from that would have been, first and foremost, trans people are sensitive, not that women need their own spaces.

How about interviewing some people brandished "terf" and why they want sex segregated spaces? How about speaking to someone involved with Michfest who didn't want trans women present, and ask them why.

I wanted to here more from the transsexual person who formed the breakaway festival for trans people, but subsequently felt uncomfortable with the pre-op people joining in. Why is that then? What do they think of the current movement and all encompassing trans umbrella?

How about speaking to some inter-sex people and how they feel about being drawn into it?

Sorry, but my takeaway from that was, terfs are unreasonable, and need to listen a bit more to hurty feelz. Bollocks to that.

[BitMuch]

I'm going to relisten later as I was busy while listening. Did they mention the triple homicide of two Michfest attending lesbian women and their son by a Camp Trans attendee? //www.gendertrending.com/2019/08/13/media-blackout-on-dana-rivers-michfest-murder-trial/

no mention of that @BitMuch**

I wonder if it was cut by the editors. That kind of male pattern violence/intimidation/harassment is a large part of why women want and need the choice of female only festivals, so it seems essential to mention when talking about Michfest trying to stay for women only. The details of the case are horrific but all too familiar in terms of male violence. Pretty much every single other festival is unisex but that wasn't enough.

So many women and girls are excluded from festivals because of the risk of rape, drugging, groping and harassment committed by males www.vice.com/en/article/ywmmeg/theres-a-rape-epidemic-at-music-festivals-and-nobody-seems-to-care. I've heard such awful stories about festivals, like a group of young men laughing about a drugged girl they watched their friend sexually assaulting and how she died drowned face down in the mud shortly after. I was very young when I overheard that and it's never left me. How much joy those male festival-goers got from the total destruction of a girl and how the men who weren't there laughed along with them. I don't think that would have happened at a female only festival but some male egos might have been hurt instead.

I'm sure a lot of people listening will have noticed the inequality in who was walking on eggshells and losing their provisions and who was asking to be given everything from the others with no complaint tolerated, or else. How one group of people are getting threatened for talking at all about their needs and reality, however polite and common sense they are. While other people, according to Jamie, shouldn't be "villanised" for making death and rape threats.

[CranberriesChoccyAgain]

@DrBlackbird

Try ArtyMorty

[DrBlackbird]

...the new reality of young people

It is not necessarily or even particularly our education system that is creating this mind set amongst young women. It is social media and the creative industries. And well meaning liberal governments (eg Canada).

You can't turn around for coming across a news story or Netflix film or series or YouTube channel on a 'coming of age' story about the trans community and an affirmative celebration approach. It feels to be an unquestioned part of being a young liberal these days.

My own DD watches Jamie Dodger and it is hard work trying to present any different reality, to question what is really meant by someone 'living as a women' in order to self identify, or question the validity of a teenager just 'knowing' in light of other older teens / young adults who detransition later.

It would be really helpful if anyone could suggest someone who posts on a YouTube channel with a GC view to provide an alternative view. That I could suggest watching as food for thought.

[OldCrone]

TW are subjected to pretty horrible abuse and there have been numerous instances of attacks. Straight men seem to be the issue - in the same way gay men were (and still are to some extent) attacked by straight men who feel threatened, trans women are now.

Gay men are still attacked, and the reason that 'transwomen' are attacked is due to the same homophobia - they are perceived as gay men (and those who are attracted to men are gay males, even though they 'identify' differently).

Trans men don’t seem to be subjected to the same levels of bullying and aggression.

Well, they're treated like other female people, which includes being in danger of being raped. Being female most of them are also smaller than the average man, so suffer from the same disadvantage as other female people when it comes to fighting off attackers.

www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/15596180.transgender-victim-glad-reported-north-east-rape/

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/transgender-sex-assault-winnipeg-taxi-1.3603515

I honestly can't see male people as being more vulnerable than female people, no matter how they identify.

Toxic masculinity is at the root of the safety problem.

I can't argue with that.

[Pota2]

[quote BitMuch]OU professor SG Chappell did a great job at NAMALTing . . .

Said "I pass myself if I don't speak". Photographed here
eicsp.org/events/event-details/784-an-evening-with-prof-sophie-grace-chappell-18-june-2020[/quote]
I don’t want to be rude but...

[ExhaustedFlamingo]

@OldCrone I was referencing from a safety perspective. As a very wide generalisation, no-one seems particularly bothered by trans men - if we are ignoring the issues that GC women are raising. I mean society as a whole - attacks seem far more prevalent on trans women. I’ve read quite a bit on the subject - TW are subjected to pretty horrible abuse and there have been numerous instances of attacks. Straight men seem to be the issue - in the same way gay men were (and still are to some extent) attacked by straight men who feel threatened, trans women are now. Trans men don’t seem to be subjected to the same levels of bullying and aggression.

However furious I am about the erosion of my biological sex, I accept that trans women also don’t feel safe at times. I don’t have solutions but I do think it’s important that just because I’m firmly in the GC camp, I don’t lose sight of the fact that we need to make sure TW are safe and protected too. Not at the expense of my safety or rights though, obviously. Most people accept that women are more vulnerable at times and need safe spaces. I don’t think it’s a reach to understand that the same applies for trans folk, particularly trans women although I accept some trans men may feel like this too. Toxic masculinity is at the root of the safety problem.

[stumbledin]

What an abysmal apolitical pathetic programme. I know its the BBC but why if you are going to look at this issue do you let someone who apparently has no politcal background, thinks what happens in America is what is important.

I am getting increasing frustrated with the inability of contemporary comentary to move beyond the I, me, my feelings, way of examing what is happening. Or worse still, isn't even based on self reflection but is just some mish mash of the irrelevant ramblings on the internet.

There have been three recent SM articles about the Feminist Library that have equally been based on nothing more than chit chat and gossip with no understanding of the issues.

I am coming to the conclusion that the education system and affirmative parenting has created a complete divide that is in fact going to be along age. (Interestingly the older trans woman interviewed had a better understanding that the interviewer.)

But what this amounts to is another of the building blocks that the mainstream are putting together to create an alternative reality.

How can you discuss an issue when you are already captured by the thought process and insular relationship to the world.

Where were the interviews with women who are actually practicing feminism ie women working in refuges and rape crisis centres.

She didn't even refer to sex discrimination.

No wonder its is one step forward and three steps back.

Cant even call it a complete sell out.

It was an excrutiating presentation of the new reality of young people who have gone through the gender queer education now taught in schools and colleges, so that the interviewer wasn't even aware that on one level she was as trapped in that artificial construction as the brave me self subserviant "cis" woman reeling of her well rehearsed perfected litany of double speak. (Note the deliberate non mention of sex but trying to mis direct by talking about gender identity and gender experience.) Any decent interviewer would have challenged that gobbledy gook.

Quite honestly am beginning to think women have lost. Future generations will just be a sub set of men.

There will be no sex discrimination because sex wont exist.

And it wont be the patriarchy. It will be the passive acceptance of the spoon fed weasel words spread by the universities and the media.

[MichelleofzeResistance]

The OU professor said the way forward in this discussion is for all of us to believe that transwomen are women because they're speaking the truth about their lived experience.

And so are female people, who say that being biologically female is not the same as a male person who identifies as a woman, and that females continue to need some spaces and language and identity that is just theirs.

It's meaningless wittering about lived experience unless it's reciprocal. Otherwise it's just yet more me male, me superior, gimme.