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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do you think so few people have applied for / acquired a GRC?

142 replies

QuimReaper · 11/01/2021 13:06

I was surprised to read recently that the number of people who hold a GRC is under 5,000, when apparently 500K people in the UK self-identify as trans. I'm just wondering why that might be - I'd have thought a majority of trans people would want their chosen pronouns on documentation. I note the fee has been reduced following the last GRA review, although I cannot possibly believe it was contributing to the low numbers originally.

Is it simply that having a GRC doesn't really impact your day-to-day life very much beyond having 'Mr' or 'Ms' on your bank statement etc.?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 16/01/2021 21:39

[quote Ereshkigalangcleg]Also some transsexual people are parents, legally. So there are trans men like Whittle who are recognised as the legal father. If the family works, then they should be able to have that right.

They shouldn’t be prevented from that because there is the occasional criminal trans woman in the world.

There are a whole host of good reasons why people shouldn't be able to get a birth certificate falsely stating they were born the opposite sex to their own.

Whittle will be registered as the mother on the child's birth certificate.

www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/trans-parents-and-legal-parenthood[/quote]
Whittle's wife is the mother of their children. Whittle has a GRC so is legally male. According to Wikipedia "In April 2006, they jointly adopted the children, making Whittle their legal father." I don't know why it was necessary for Whittle's wife to adopt her own children though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/01/2021 21:41

Ah thank you OldCrone, I thought Whittle had given birth to them.

drspouse · 16/01/2021 21:42

@Typesofcatalogue

I think he is their legal father. He’s legally a man, not a woman.
So was Freddy wotsit. Still "mother" on the BC. It's the child's document, not the parents'
drspouse · 16/01/2021 21:44

Oh sorry, not paying attention. @OldCrone when a step parent adopts, the birth parent also has to adopt their own child.

OldCrone · 16/01/2021 21:49

Death certificates have sex on. Most people won’t want their wife’s death certificate to say ‘male’ or their husband’s to say ‘female’.

This seems to be a poor reason to force the whole world to accept someone as the opposite sex. A death certificate is an administrative document which allows the person's heirs to arrange a funeral and deal with probate. Nobody is going to pay much attention to whether it says 'male' or 'female' on it.

OldCrone · 16/01/2021 21:50

@drspouse

Oh sorry, not paying attention. *@OldCrone* when a step parent adopts, the birth parent also has to adopt their own child.
Thanks. I didn't know that.
DeaconBoo · 17/01/2021 00:26

@drspouse

Oh sorry, not paying attention. *@OldCrone* when a step parent adopts, the birth parent also has to adopt their own child.
I had no idea about this - do you have a link to any further info about it explaining why/how? I googled but couldn't find anything about the birth parent adopting, just the other birth parent having to give consent to ending the legal relationship with the child.
MissBarbary · 17/01/2021 04:00

This is an interesting article about adoption and covers the issue of a natural parent having to be a co- adopter with a step parent. The Children Act 1989 amended the Adoption Act 1976. The Adoption Act 1976 allowed for adoption by a one parent of their own child in certain circumstances. If however the adoption application was by one person on their own who was a step- parent the court was to dismiss the application if other arrangements such as a custody order would suffice.

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200001/cmselect/cmadopt/431/431iv30.htm

MissBarbary · 17/01/2021 04:07

Sorry should add the 1976 Act covered adoption applications by one person, rather than couples but if the single person was a step parent the application would have been a joint application.

I suppose the logic is adoption severs the links with the natural parents. A single person adopting a child could perfectly reasonably become that child's only parent severing links with the natural parents. A step- parent adopting a child would also have severed the links with the natural parents so only in exceptional circumstances would that have been desirable. Hence the natural parent and the step parent both adopt.

MoleSmokes · 17/01/2021 05:51

I understand, but cannot cite the change in legislation, that the rules about adoption by a step-parent have changed. When my brother married, both he and his wife had to adopt her daughter in order for him to become the child’s adoptive father. I understand, but am happy to be corrected, that today it is different and the natural parent would not need to apply to also become an adoptive parent.

It was a weird system, requiring a natural parent to become an adoptive parent, and I have no idea of the reason for it.

MoleSmokes · 17/01/2021 07:15

@OldCrone

Death certificates have sex on. Most people won’t want their wife’s death certificate to say ‘male’ or their husband’s to say ‘female’.

This seems to be a poor reason to force the whole world to accept someone as the opposite sex. A death certificate is an administrative document which allows the person's heirs to arrange a funeral and deal with probate. Nobody is going to pay much attention to whether it says 'male' or 'female' on it.

I agree.

Also, when you die it is those who are still living whose feelings deserve most respect and compassion. It does not matter to you - you are not there and not affected.

If family and/or friends want to respect the deceased wishes to be remembered as “Nicky” (Nicola) rather than “Nicky” (Nicolas) or vice versa - Nicky is out of the picture.

It might or might not be a delicate or fraught situation, it might be completely uncontroversial for all concerned.

What should be respected for future generations is an accurate historical record. Another problem with fake birth certificates is that they are misleading even beyond the lifespan of the holder.

If there are sex-specific medical conditions in the family history then obscuring these through falsified records could have an impact on future generations and there is no need for this nonsense.

Nobody cares if Uncle thinks he is Auntie or vice versa. If recognition of that cross-sex identity is so important then let it be marked more appropriately and without shame or stigma as a cross-sex identity. Rather than pretending a male is female or vice versa.

OK there are countries where this might be a problem if you travelled to them. Women have to accommodate cultural restrictions anyway, hiding arms, legs, hair to avoid being attacked or harassed.

There are so many specious excuses for a special exception having to be made for circumstances when others, usually women, have to accept compromises. Sometimes on pain of death.

Gender expression is mutable but sex is sacrosanct. It is horribly regressive to suggest assigning anyone to the opposite sex or a “third sex” for any reason, including the completely theoretical and unprovable notion of a “gender identity”.

The fact that, for instance, David Bowie, is being appropriated as “trans” is ludicrous, offensive and staggeringly culturally insensitive.

That was an era when no one of an age to be interested gave a flying fuck about “gender expression” and we all understood that the baseline was sex, M vs F and the function.

What is happening now to the straightjacketing of both males and females in their teens and twenties is so very sad and regressive. Is it a reaction to the open-mindedness of their parents / grandparents?

MissBarbary · 17/01/2021 14:40

It was a weird system, requiring a natural parent to become an adoptive parent, and I have no idea of the reason for it

The reason is obvious. Adoption severs the link with the natural parents and the natural parents family. If only the step parent adopted then the link to both natural parents was severed. Later legislation changed that.

HeadIsFucked · 11/02/2021 13:12

This process is on another planet from the genuinely complex, massively time-consuming and degrading gate-keeping familiar to anyone who has applied for any sort of disability benefit.

Yes, it grates seeing the comparisons to PIP and such. From what I have read, GRC is all paperwork. My husbands cousin has a GRC, and said it was mainly just sending in old bills. I specifically asked her ages back when TRAs were misrepresenting the whole 'have to use womens spaces to get a GRC' stuff. She was baffled by that. And also pointed out that..how would you prove you had been in womens spaces anyway, short of photographing yourself in each one, which would potentially be illegal!

PIP is a horrific process. I have a 10 year award now with a light touch review..given my illness will never get better and will almost definitely get worse. But on both of my prior 'assessments' I was outright asked why, if the pain is so bad, I had not committed suicide yet Hmm I was told at one that I cannot possibly be a fit parent if I am 'in as much pain as you claim' (well..tbf thats part of the reason DH had to go part time. But the way it was put..) ad even asked why, if its so hard seeing NHS doctors, I do not 'just go private and get it sorted quicker'?! WHILE being assessed for the same illness, with the view of them removing a significant chunk of my income. I said I couldnt afford it now, and certainly not when I have to wait 2 years for a tribunal again (because basically, at that stage what the outcome was going to be was clear as day)

How amazing it would have been IMO to be able to send in doctors/consultant/pain clinic reports for the past few years, and then get an automatic pass. Yeah, sounds so drawn out and dehumanising.

HeadIsFucked · 11/02/2021 14:49

The right to have transsexual status taken into account when being sentenced, so that a non-custodial sentence is given whenever permissible, because of the additional difficulties faced by transsexual people in prisons.

This kind of rings alarm bells to me. Don't put us in prison, as we might not have too good a time of it?

Non custodial sentences should be imposed, where possible of course anyway. But quite why that should be specific to someone being trans I dont know?

merrymouse · 11/02/2021 15:11

So there are trans men like Whittle who are recognised as the legal father.

Does an adoption order differentiate between adoptive mother and father, or does it just list them as parents?

CranberriesChoccyAgain · 11/02/2021 15:18

@HeadIsFucked

The right to have transsexual status taken into account when being sentenced, so that a non-custodial sentence is given whenever permissible, because of the additional difficulties faced by transsexual people in prisons.

This kind of rings alarm bells to me. Don't put us in prison, as we might not have too good a time of it?

Non custodial sentences should be imposed, where possible of course anyway. But quite why that should be specific to someone being trans I dont know?

Sounds like they don't want the logistic nightmare of figuring out where to put them to maintain safety but don't want to outright say that because it's saying the bits out loud we're not supposed to. That violent male offenders identifying as women pose a risk to female prisoners.
CranberriesChoccyAgain · 11/02/2021 15:20

^^ And that TW prisoners are at risk of male violence in men's prisons.

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