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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Abortion Rights UK tweet about Keira Bell case

76 replies

Manderleyagain · 05/12/2020 11:01

Abortion rights UK have tweeted about the case.
mobile.twitter.com/Abortion_Rights/status/1335165087166963712

"Let' talk about the Keira Bell v Tavistock judgement & the instructing solicitor Paul Conrathe, an activist lawyer with a LONG history of taking on anti-abortion cases.

This case has far-reaching implications beyond trans lives, it has the potential to rob young people to access abortion & conception."

" JUST FEW HIGHLIGHTS FROM Paul Conrathe CV

1990 Argues that the Abortion Act is amended restricting time limits from 28 to 24

2001 He sought an injunction on behalf of Stephen Hone to force his ex-girlfriend to continue an unwanted pregnancy.

Alliance Defending Freedom and its activities are concerning, There are also allegations that the organisation is pouring dark money into grassroots movements that oppose LGBT+ and sexual reproductive rights."

Short on any factual explanation of how this case will affect the legal situation for abortion access. Long on insinuation.

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merrymouse · 05/12/2020 11:05

As I said on the other thread, it seems that Paul Conrathe can sit this one out and the 'dark money' can stay in the piggy bank.

'Abortion Rights' are quite happy to make the case that this judgement has implications for contraception and abortion by themselves.

AnotherLass · 05/12/2020 11:07

Of course this is all ad homonym, there is nothing in the judgement that affects abortion rights at all.

I'm guessing Keira et al used Paul Conrathe because he'd won for Harry Miller.

Dunno if it is worth explaining that to them.

NameChange9824 · 05/12/2020 11:09

My understanding is that this case has significant implications for rules around Gillick competence and undermines established practice about what kind of treatment someone under 16 can consent to.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 05/12/2020 11:10

What is their point? Do they want to change the law to make it 28 weeks again? I think that they might be undermining their own cause if they think most of the population want that. And the Kiera Bell case is very clearly not about gillick competence for abortion or contraception, it's for the treatment pathway Kiera was put on. They need to read the judgement.

NotBadConsidering · 05/12/2020 11:15

It’s just as fair to say that being given puberty blockers at 13 is akin to continuing a pregnancy as it is to being allowed an abortion. Why is it automatically painted as the opposite? I mean just like at the comparisons between a 13 year old deciding to continue a pregnancy, or being made to continue a pregnancy like in some countries) and going on puberty blockers:

• An idealised view of what the future will bring.
• Failure of adults to protect the child from the trauma that led to that point and the medical implications from that point on.
• a decision driven by ideology in countries where children are made to continue.

It can surely be argued that Keira’s decision reinforces abortion rights for children under the age of 16, because it recognises that they cannot consent to the impregnation that got them there and continuing a pregnancy, despite what they or adults around them might think.

The reality is nothing will change with this because the two situations are not actually comparable because abortion and pregnancy aren’t experimental.

YippeeKayakOtherBuckets · 05/12/2020 11:17

‘Conception’ (not contraception) is an interesting Freudian slip.

Floisme · 05/12/2020 11:18

Hmm, my understanding is that the ruling actually applies the principles of Gillick competence to this treatment and concludes that, (unlike abortion and contraception) it fails to meet the standard.

Biscuitsanddoombar · 05/12/2020 11:20

That was my understanding too Flosime

merrymouse · 05/12/2020 11:23

My understanding is that this case has significant implications for rules around Gillick competence and undermines established practice about what kind of treatment someone under 16 can consent to.

No, this is not correct, because the judgement is relevant to the specific treatment that Bell received. This is an extract from the judgement

"The starting point is to consider the nature of the treatment proposed. The administration of PBs to people going through puberty is a very unusual treatment for the following reasons. Firstly, there is real uncertainty over the short and long-term consequences of the treatment with very limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed quite what it is seeking to achieve. This means it is, in our view, properly described as experimental treatment. Secondly, there is a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment: in particular, whether it provides a “pause to think” in a “hormone neutral” state or is a treatment to limit the effects of puberty, and thus the need for greater surgical and chemical intervention later, as referred to in the Health Research Authority report. Thirdly, the consequences of the treatment are highly complex and potentially lifelong and life changing in the most fundamental way imaginable. The treatment goes to the heart of an individual’s identity, and is thus, quite possibly, unique as a medical treatment."

Contraception and abortion are not experimental treatments, and the judgement explicitly says that it deals with something that is 'quite possibly, unique as a medical treatment'.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 05/12/2020 11:24

Mine too Flosime. Surely Gillick competence is dependent on the complexity of the decision: "Lord Scarman's test is generally considered to be the test of 'Gillick competency'. He required that a child could consent if he or she fully understood the medical treatment that is proposed:

As a matter of Law the parental right to determine whether or not their minor child below the age of sixteen will have medical treatment terminates if and when the child achieves sufficient understanding and intelligence to understand fully what is proposed.

— Lord Scarman[1]"

RoyalCorgi · 05/12/2020 11:35

Let's have a look at what the ruling says:

'Fourthly, however, that does not mean that every individual under 16 can achieve Gillick competence in relation to the treatment proposed. As we discuss below, where the consequences of the treatment are profound, the benefits unclear and the long-term consequences to a material degree unknown, it may be that Gillick competence cannot
be achieved, however much information and supportive discussion is undertaken.'

and

'The administration of PBs to people going through puberty is a very unusual treatment for the following reasons. Firstly, there is real uncertainty over the short and long-term consequences of the treatment with very limited evidence as to its efficacy, or indeed
quite what it is seeking to achieve. This means it is, in our view, properly described as experimental treatment. Secondly, there is a lack of clarity over the purpose of the treatment: in particular, whether it provides a “pause to think” in a “hormone neutral” state or is a treatment to limit the effects of puberty, and thus the need for greater
surgical and chemical intervention later, as referred to in the Health Research Authority report. Thirdly, the consequences of the treatment are highly complex and potentially lifelong and life changing in the most fundamental way imaginable. The treatment goes
to the heart of an individual’s identity, and is thus, quite possibly,
unique as a medical treatment.'

and

'Furthermore, the nature and the purpose of the medical intervention must be considered. The condition being treated, GD, has no direct physical manifestation. In contrast, the treatment provided for that condition has direct physical consequences, as the medication is intended to and does prevent the physical changes that would otherwise occur within the body, in particular by stopping the biological and physical development that would otherwise take place at that age. There is also an issue as to whether GD is properly categorised as a psychological condition, as the DSM-5 appears
to do, although we recognise there are those who would not wish to see the condition categorised in that way. Be that as it may, in our judgment for the reasons already identified, the clinical intervention we are concerned with here is different in kind to other treatments or clinical interventions. In other cases, medical treatment isIn other cases, medical treatment is used to remedy, or alleviate the symptoms of, a diagnosed physical or mental condition, and the effects of that treatment are direct and usually apparent. The position in relation to puberty blockers would not seem to reflect that description.'

My emphasis.

The judgement is crystal clear. This is about puberty blockers and puberty blockers alone. Abortion Rights, Jo Maugham and co are either terminally stupid or deliberately whipping up fear. Disgusting.

NewlyGranny · 05/12/2020 11:36

Far, far easier for a 12 or 13 yo to grasp the significance and full implications of continuing or terminating a pregnancy, or preventing conception in the first place! They've all seen pregnant women people and know what babies are!

Very different indeed from grasping the concept of losing their adult sexual function and fertility.

merrymouse · 05/12/2020 11:42

ukhumanrightsblog.com/2020/12/04/puberty-blocking-can-a-child-consent/

This comment (from Marina Wheeler) focuses on the experimental aspect and compares PBs to vaginal mesh.

"relevant data about the impact treatment was not collated so the experience of this patient group was never systematically analysed and acted upon. Innovation in medicine is good, the Review concluded. The desire to relieve suffering is right. But where the effect of treatment is irreversible and profound, caution is necessary to avoid inadvertently causing harm. As I read it, the Court in Bell v Tavistock were conveying a similar message."

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 05/12/2020 11:46

The judgement is crystal clear. This is about puberty blockers and puberty blockers alone. Abortion Rights, Jo Maugham and co are either terminally stupid or deliberately whipping up fear. Disgusting.

I know the answer to this!

Seethefairfromtheair · 05/12/2020 11:51

The Abortion rights UK tweet linked has been deleted?

Manderleyagain · 05/12/2020 11:53

They have deleted the tweet. Within an hour and 20 mins of posting it.

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Manderleyagain · 05/12/2020 11:54

Merrymouse thanks for that blog. Had not seen it.

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Thelnebriati · 05/12/2020 11:54

Did they decide that not knowing the law on your single issue campaign isn't a good look?

highame · 05/12/2020 11:59

@Thelnebriati

Did they decide that not knowing the law on your single issue campaign isn't a good look?
😂
Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 05/12/2020 12:03

I hope they apologise for being misleading.

LaValliere · 05/12/2020 12:03

Gillick competence is what permits young people to have (or to refuse) medical interventions -including abortion and contraception - against their parents' wishes. It is the foundation of young people's medical rights and freedoms.

If Abortion Rights UK is actually opposing Gillick competence, as a concept, then they're arguing against the rights of girls to access abortion against their parents wishes. And potentially even arguing that parents should be able to enforce abortions on unwilling daughters - because Gillick competence is what prevents that. Jesus.

If Abortion Rights UK are not opposing Gillick competence as the basis for decision making and access to medical interventions, what are they doing? Suggesting Gillick competence does not require informed consent? (In which case, what's their alternative?) Mindlessly spouting off nonsense?

Morons. Actually, worse than that, really dangerous. Weaponised stupidity that threatens the bodily autonomy of young people.

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 05/12/2020 12:16

Oh no. A quick search of Twitter for "Gillick competence" finds 100s of people spreading this misinformation. It obviously fits with the narrative that the court case must have been funded by "the far-right"Hmm

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 05/12/2020 12:21

All that ‘CV’ says to me is that Conrathe is willing to take on controversial cases. Sometimes he loses them, sometimes he wins.

It doesn’t tell us anything about his personal beliefs. The 28 week limit reducing to 24 isn’t even considered particularly controversial, medical staff/technology got better at saving very early neonates and the law changed to reflect that (the law followed the science, essentially).

(I realise that there are persuasive feminist arguments around fewer limits on abortion, but I do think our middling legal position of a 24 week limit helps prevent the British public falling into sort of political polarisation we see elsewhere).

Arguing that the 24 week limit wasn’t a reasonable legal change in front of joe public goes down about as well as saying children should be allowed to opt out of puberty using experimental drugs. It’s really not something most people are going to nod along too.

Abortion Rights U.K. be acting like crazies.

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/12/2020 12:41

Someone's working overtime spreading the propaganda, aren't they, desperately trying to get more people on the side of sterilising children by pretending not doing so hurts the rights of girls. (Funny how everyone has suddenly found themselves caring about women's/girls rights now, huh, after years of trying to dismantle them?)

Who, oh who could the long nosed culprits be, I wonder? A real mystery...

These idiots rambling on like this should step back and actually use their brains for once, and READ the frickin' judgement before destroying their credibility in a single sulky tweet. I'm not the brightest spark and even I managed to understand it all just fine. It's crystal clear, no excuses.

It really speaks volumes that they need to lie, lie and lie more to defend their disgraceful positions...

VulvaPerson · 05/12/2020 14:23

I don't get why so many places ae backing up the totally nonsense view that applying usual safeguarding and medical ethics standard to GNC kids, will in any way affect abortion or contraception rights. Its just so ridiculous, yet they seem to be all saying it.