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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

URGENT Call for evidence GRA

176 replies

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 25/11/2020 20:22

Note to self: the deadline for submissions to the Women and Equalities Committee is this FRIDAY.

I know there are other threads about this but I just want to remind myself and anyone else who hasn’t got round to doing it yet that time is fast running out.

I can’t say I’m looking forward to it because from the headings they’ve chosen, it doesn’t look like they’re really interested in hearing from women, or considering any of it from women’s perspective at all. There still isn’t a real acknowledgment of the impact all these decisions have on women’s and girls’ lives; they seem to be coming at it overwhelmingly from the perspective of exclusively trans people, and it looks to me like they are looking for a way to shoo in self ID regardless of Truss’s statement.

Even the (one) bit about single sex exemptions feels to me worrying like they’re looking for reasons to get rid of them.

But I do hope I’m being paranoid here.

Anyway.

To arms, sisters! I’m looking forward to it like I look forward to doing tax returns, with a side order of existential misery, but I’m girding my loins thinking of the greater good. And I’m going to try not to post on any other threads till I’ve actually done it.

Priorities.

Any encouragement gratefully received!

OP posts:
2Rebecca · 26/11/2020 23:28

sent

testing987654321 · 27/11/2020 00:02

Oh fantastic!

I have done my own one, but am also pulling together a group one. I made sure my personal one largely covered different questions to the group one. I am so tired though, it takes so long to make sure it is either evidence of our own experiences or is referenced by articles/surveys etc.

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 27/11/2020 00:02

Thank you wiggly, that's good to know as I still haven't managed to finish! Tomorrow it is then...

ahagwearsapointybonnet · 27/11/2020 00:04

Yes I agree testing, so many things I "know" because I heard/read about them months or years back, but in order to actually be able to prove them, have to dig around loads...

testing987654321 · 27/11/2020 00:11

Ha yes, I just wish I'd been a lot more obsessive about links. Using google to search mumsnet finds most stuff.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/11/2020 01:06

Just completed it and sent it in. Takes me back to my student days doing all-nighters to get essays in on time -- not that I could manage an all-nighter now, I'd be asleep with my face on the desk by 4am.

When I start getting tired of this stream of consultations, I remind myself that it's good to see these questions being asked at last. And asked again, and thought about, and I hope the genuine individual answers being read and digested. The progress is slow, but it's progress.

fastwigglylines · 27/11/2020 08:01

I'm starting mine today, wish me luck!

I'm just going to focus on 1 question at a time and properly evidencing it and not worry if I don't do too many questions.

Quality over quantity.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/11/2020 08:19

@fastwigglylines

Here it is: deadline 23:58 tomorrow.
Thank you for this! 😘
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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/11/2020 08:22

The WESC have started publishing the responses already.

Where did you find these? Do you have a link?
TIA

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TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/11/2020 08:32

Thanks!

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testing987654321 · 27/11/2020 08:34

I'm just going to focus on 1 question at a time and properly evidencing it and not worry if I don't do too many questions.

Do have a good think about which ones are most appropriate for you to answer. The ones about conflicts between the EA and the GRA are obvious ones for women to answer. The need for more guidance on the exemptions in the EA for sports and single sex spaces.
The I think the suggested of lowering the age gives opportunities to talk about why they shouldn't, effects on young people.
And I know trans widows concentrate on the spousal exit clause.

testing987654321 · 27/11/2020 08:36

Hope that didn't sound patronising wiggly, I am sure I spent a good week pondering how to approach it.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/11/2020 09:13

The ones about conflicts between the EA and the GRA are obvious ones for women to answer. The need for more guidance on the exemptions in the EA for sports and single sex spaces.

Can anyone post some brief bullet points for the above question, please? Or links to articles, studies etc.
I know I'll be scrabbling around looking for old threads as midnight approaches. 😰

fastwigglylines · 27/11/2020 09:16

@testing987654321

Hope that didn't sound patronising wiggly, I am sure I spent a good week pondering how to approach it.
Not at all! Good advice, thanks :)

I'm definitely going to do the ones about conflicts between the EA and the GRA.

For evidence on this, I'm planning to point to "Stonewall law" - examples of where people / companies are misinterpreting the EA and ask for the government to provide clear guidance as the effect is that services for women and single sex spaces are being denied to women on the basis of misinterpreting the law.

I think that's relevant, can anyone advise?

I also want to tackle the question about the age of transition. As a mother I don't think it's at all appropriate for children to be able to make such life long decisions.

For evidence on that one I want to point to how much misinformation there is on this (e.g. I hope I can find evidence of studies misquoted) and to bring up detransitioners - that the message being given to parents and kids on this one is that detransition rate is low, the blockers are reversible and that the suicide rate is high - but that these things are not true.

For further evidence on this one I'll also point to the testimony of the GIDS / Tavistock whistle-blowers, Transgender Trend's info on the manipulation of the suicide stats and show that the number of detransitioners is underplayed and not known. I'll call for a government audit of government funded organisations, to make sure they're not putting out misinformation on this. (e.g. that blockers are "reversible").

I want to talk about how GRA reform will legitimise such treatments and that lowering the age of transition legally risks locking young people into a path that leads to poor medical outcomes. I'm not sure what evidence I can use to prove a link here between government policy and people's behaviour though, can anyone advise?

I'd also like to point out that's it's impossible to have a meaningful conversation about GRA reform / transgender people if they don't define terms. This is relevant to the question on how many people have applied for a GRC. These days trans can mean a huge umbrella of people. (Evidence, Stonewall on this probably). at the time of the 2004 GRA is meant a very specific group of people - transsexuals seeking "sex change" - and in the Hansard debates, IIRC they predicted about 5,000 people would want a GRC. That there are "only" about 5,000 GRCs now shows their predictions were spot on.

Under the question on "what else should we have included" I also think I want to talk ab out how they've omitted any consideration of women - and indeed all people within the other protected characteristics. They need to do an impact assessment on how any such changes will affect other people as there is a conflict of rights here. I'm not sure what evidence I'll use for that - does anyone have any ideas?

I many not get all this done, but I'm going to try!

GeorgiaMcGraw · 27/11/2020 09:23

@Nonnymouse maybe look at RFU England's recent announcement they would carry on allowing transwomen who lower their testosterone level to compete woth women. Women don't have female only sport, even though Wold Rugby said they would change to a female-only policy. There's a few males who haven't transitioned in women's cricket too.

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/11/2020 09:24

Also, young people's brains do not fully mature until about 25.

The rational, long-term ability develops well after the more emotional side. Hence children tend to make poor decisions without considering long-term consequences.

www.scottishsentencingcouncil.org.uk/news-and-media/news/research-indicates-the-brain-does-not-fully-mature-until-you-are-at-least-25/

NonnyMouse1337 · 27/11/2020 09:24

Thanks, GeorgiaMcGraw!

fastwigglylines · 27/11/2020 09:24

Most of this section of MN could probably be used as evidence!

Instead of reinventing the wheel, how about MNers trying to do thei at the last minute, start off with their own posts on here or elsewhere on social media and just rework into the questions.

I'm sure all of us who are engaged in this debate - on here and on FB / elsewhere you can write a post, already have loads of well-evidenced material that we could submit.

So, a quick way to do this could be to find your various rants on this you've already written, and then put them together and tweak. You can't submit material you've already published but if you edit it and jiggle it around a bit then it'll be new.

nauticant · 27/11/2020 09:28

Why are they asking for evidence again, when the changes have literally only just been made?

It reminds me of this:

"Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always."

jellyfrizz · 27/11/2020 10:30

Thanks for the link testing. The responses are interesting. Lots of calls for clarification on the use of 'sex' and 'gender' from all angles.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 27/11/2020 10:38

@nauticant

Why are they asking for evidence again, when the changes have literally only just been made?

It reminds me of this:

"Today we were unlucky, but remember we only have to be lucky once. You will have to be lucky always."

Doesn’t it just Sad Angry
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KeepPrisonsSingleSex · 27/11/2020 11:21

BUMPING!!!!

334bu · 27/11/2020 11:34

The Scottish bill drops the age to 16 and I notice that a lot of the submissions from people identifying as transgender are advocating for this in the Westminster bill. Could everyone who has not yet submitted their evidence maybe counter this somewhere in their submission?

jhuizinga · 27/11/2020 12:07

Bumping again. I have drafted my response and will edit / refine this afternoon.

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