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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What sex were you assigned at birth asks Covid Symptom Study

64 replies

Areyouactuallyseriousrightnow · 20/08/2020 15:32

The Covid Symptom Study, developed by health science company Zoe, with data being analysed by Kings College London, and endorsed by various large public bodies, asks participants to confirm the sex they were ‘assigned’ at birth.
It doesn’t appear to even be conflating this with gender as gender is a separate question.
If a major health science company is using biologically impossible terminology, what hope is there?
If I can figure out how to question this with them, I will.

What sex were you assigned at birth asks Covid Symptom Study
OP posts:
Areyouactuallyseriousrightnow · 20/08/2020 17:43

@InvisibleDragon it’s not so much the data for me, as they’ve at least made a distinction that gender identity isn’t the same as biological sex.
It’s just that the term ‘sex assigned at birth’ is becoming completely normalised into everyday language, to the point where it’s being used in a large scale scientific study, when it’s simply factually incorrect, and undermines the irrefutability of biological sex.
I do think we need to continue to question this language every time we come across it.

OP posts:
Melroses · 20/08/2020 17:54

I tried that and it was impossible to enter anything sensible if you are not a Believer in The Gender Identity Fairy in The Sky.

I did mention it to the chap in charge on Twitter, but nada....... they could have attached me and my entire family to the twins study data which it is connected to.

SheepandCow · 20/08/2020 17:59

I mostly lurk here and probably don't understand enough. This is no doubt a stupid question but instead of saying 'assigned', can't they just ask what biological sex?

stumbledin · 20/08/2020 18:00

This came up on another thread about how health stats are being recorded.

I registered with one of the Hospitals I attend for out patient treatment to receive info via email, so was asked to join some online service run by an external company,

It had all this incorrect data nonsense so I registered a complaint.

Initially they were very responsive and said it was part of a Europe wide based recommendation to standardise how information was collected. And that at that time (about a year ago) the NHS in England has received a directive saying they should use these phrases.

When I challenged it further I just stopped getting an replies. I later made a comment to my GP at the end of an appointment about how could Doctors be taken seriously is they talked about gender when they meant sex. And she just laughed and shrugged her shoulders.

Since then I have never taken part in any online survey because of this directive.

Cant evern blame Stonewall, unless somehow before Brexit they were out and about in Europe.

Just seems every system has been captured by the trans lobby and the people who should care dont, or are too intimidated to say or do anything.

Angry
Melroses · 20/08/2020 18:02

Even "registered at birth" isn't particularly good

They could have just used Registered Sex.

SheepandCow · 20/08/2020 18:03

Perhaps I'm being irrational but I feel saying 'assigned' erases my biological sex reality. Sex isn't the same as gender. It's gender that might be assigned at birth, not sex. I say might because some of us were brought up without a gender.

SnuggyBuggy · 20/08/2020 18:04

That question makes my face twitch.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/08/2020 18:05

@SheepandCow

I mostly lurk here and probably don't understand enough. This is no doubt a stupid question but instead of saying 'assigned', can't they just ask what biological sex?
You'd have thought, but nowadays there are TW who claim to be biological females. Because they think their brains are somehow 'female'.
Melroses · 20/08/2020 18:06

Cant evern blame Stonewall, unless somehow before Brexit they were out and about in Europe.

There are world 'agreements' and european 'agreements' but they have not been agreed to by governments, iyswim. Whittle et friends.

InvisibleDragon · 20/08/2020 18:21

@Areyouactuallyseriousrightnow Broadly, I agree. It's not helpful or scientifically correct either to conflate sex and gender, or to imply that biological sex (whether XX, XY, XY with AIS or whatever) is not immutable.

However, given the current climate, in which saying this stuff leads to censure andTwitter pile-ons, I am at least pleased that this study is maintaining an accurate representation of both sex and gender - even if they use clunky, inaccurate language to do so.

Areyouactuallyseriousrightnow · 20/08/2020 21:02

Yes I suppose so, it is symptomatic of how absurd this debate is, that we have to consider a question acknowledging biology in an incorrect way, a victory, because the alternative is that biology is not acknowledged at all.

OP posts:
stumbledin · 20/08/2020 23:23

Melroses - until Brexit the UK was part of a shared European Health System - which is why you could get an EHIC.

AgnesNaismith · 21/08/2020 02:07

I filled in a survey earlier for a local (but internationally established) dance company. Surprisingly and refreshingly, their questions were:

  1. What is your sex?
2, Which of the following options best describes how you think of your gender identity?

Which may have been a better way for the app to question. The big market research companies are yet to pick up on these questions as a standard (they still use gender), It would be a big step forward if they did! An acknowledgement that sex and gender are not the same thing.

ChattyLion · 21/08/2020 09:16

I agree Agnes that a clear simple factual question like the dance company asks is a better question politically. I agree with Necessary that it’s following a genderist political line to present biological sex as being a matter of arbitrary paperwork.

But the NHS wording is ironically perhaps more likely to get a biologically relevant answer because it asks about the paperwork, not about personal feelings.

A complicating factor is that genderism promotes self ID and also that we have the Gender Recognition Act. (You can legally change sex if you are granted a GRC).

So GRC holders can use their new legal sex for the sex question absolutely legitimately. Anyone who takes a genderist political stance, ie who believes in gender over sex, would logically self-ID for their answer for any questions on sex, in accordance with their belief.

So I can see why the NHS would use that clunky question about the birth registration to sidestep those factors and I think it’s probably the least worst option to use in this particular zeitgeist.

ChattyLion · 21/08/2020 09:31

I can’t mention the GRA without saying that I think the GRA should be repealed- it’s superfluous now because (rightly!) we have same sex marriage and equal pension age.

It’s also not the state’s role to issue validation for validation’s sake in the way GRA now does. (because unless I have misunderstood greatly, holding a GRC is no longer correcting any individual injustice around marriage and pensions etc, it is now just ‘correcting’ reality.)

The fundamental principles of the GRA are sexist and homophobic and misogynistic because they rely on privileging sexist stereotypes of femininity and masculinity over biological sex, and the GRC process itself was poorly and naively drafted because it contained those sorts of assumptions.

So for example GRC process lacks the basic features of an official status that is granted if people meet specific criteria. For example it has no revocation process because the GRC holder has changed their mind- so it fails basic rules on consent in how it traps people within an official record of legal sex even after they detransition.

And GRA requires meaningless things like that GRC holders must live in that gender until death, but provides no revocation process if people don’t actually do that, so it’s not really any kind of requirement at all.

GRCs and the secrecy and criminal punishment around asking who has the GRC all cause a chilling effect around the GRC itself. All that props up self ID and problems with male access to women’s places and spaces. The existing exceptions in the EQA to the GRC’s relevance are unclear and very hard to get enforced.

There are loads of other problems with it. It’s a big, outdated mess. Let’s do away with the GRA and just let people live how they want under their EQA protections. Our laws should recognise that society does need to place value on biological sex- especially to support the interests of women and children.

Cailleach1 · 21/08/2020 09:38

Just as an aside, when a person's birth cert is altered to change sex, can the name be altered as well?

If so, this is a dream for someone seeking a completely new identity. No need for a false alias, you can change the original document.

BowlerHatPowerHat · 21/08/2020 09:45

It'd be interesting to know what the answer to 'why are we asking this question' on the gender question of Cwenthyth's screenshot.
The problem organisations have is they shouldn't be asking for any information that isn't relevant - so generally 'gender' isn't needed. Sex may be required or used for equalities data.

ChattyLion · 21/08/2020 10:07

Me too. Have you still got the link Cwenthryth?

ArabellaScott · 21/08/2020 10:09

@Cocklepops

Is there not an option for ‘I can’t remember, I was very young at the time’?
Grin

Arse to all of this, I have just in a fit of pique scored out 'gender' and written in 'sex' on a form where I really oughtn't to have bothered. (Some battles are not worth taking on). It's the poor, harassed data gatherers that then deal with the aftermath, rather than the twonks at the top that have implemented these ideologically-driven fudges. And I don't want to give the admin staff grief.

I think I'll bin the whole bloody form and ask for another.

Gah.

ArabellaScott · 21/08/2020 10:15

@Cailleach1

Just as an aside, when a person's birth cert is altered to change sex, can the name be altered as well?

If so, this is a dream for someone seeking a completely new identity. No need for a false alias, you can change the original document.

I don't know if you want to know the answer to this, but it is yes, the name can be altered. A whole new identity can be forged. And you might think that there are steps taken to cover for the eventuality of criminals taking advantage of this loophole, but unfortunately you would be wrong - the govt apparently relies on the honesty of the person 'having to declare' former names when applying for a job that requires a disclosure, etc.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3978623-900-sex-offenders-disappear-from-police-radar

There is a thread on here, somewhere, I'll see if I can find it.

ArabellaScott · 21/08/2020 10:15

Er, I searched and found the thread, but forgot to delete my last line. Excuse me, brain is a bit leaky this morning. Friday, eh?

Gottalife · 21/08/2020 12:43

@Cailleach1

Just as an aside, when a person's birth cert is altered to change sex, can the name be altered as well?

If so, this is a dream for someone seeking a completely new identity. No need for a false alias, you can change the original document.

Yes, names can be changed as well.

A birth certificate is just a copy of the info on the birth register. It should not really be accepted as proof of identity. Anyone can apply for a copy of any birth certificate if they know the details. There have been stories of criminals obtaining birth certificates of deceased children to create a new identity.

Cailleach1 · 21/08/2020 12:50

Intersesting. I have had to provide my birth cert for official things. Seen and verified by Commissioner for Oaths etc. However, getting someone else's birth cert and adopting their identity would be fraud, whereas there is now a route to altering one's own birth cert. That is not classified as fraud.

So, can the information on the birth register be changed because the person in question wants to be given a new identity (for whatever reason), I wonder? Name and sex.

Gottalife · 21/08/2020 13:00

@Cailleach1

Just as an aside, when a person's birth cert is altered to change sex, can the name be altered as well?

If so, this is a dream for someone seeking a completely new identity. No need for a false alias, you can change the original document.

No.

But a bc should not be used to prove id anyway, anyone who accepts it is not heeding the warning on the bottom of every bc.

WARNING: A CERTIFICATE IS NOT EVIDENCE OF IDENTITY.

Gottalife · 21/08/2020 13:04

@Cailleach1

Just as an aside, when a person's birth cert is altered to change sex, can the name be altered as well?

If so, this is a dream for someone seeking a completely new identity. No need for a false alias, you can change the original document.

Sorry the answer to that is yes.