Giggle app - 'for girls only'

[midclegs]

I am becoming more and more angry with a 'women and girls only' app called Giggle. It transpires that this app, which purports to only allow females and tests membership by using 'sophisticated AI' to test for male/female facial characteristics based on 'selfies', is unsuccessfully straddling the line between trying to be inclusive for transwomen (and Sall, the founder, believes TWAW) and lying to women and girls by saying that men aren't allowed.

Here is the website: joinagiggle.com/

TRAs aren't happy because it's trans-exclusive; www.theverge.com/2020/2/7/21128236/gender-appgiggle-women-ai-screen-trans-social

Sall says there are no men on Giggle, twitter.com/salltweets/status/1280070838289436680

Sall tells us itis a forum for women and girls to discuss periods and PCOS twitter.com/salltweets/status/1280065432615923712?s=20

A good thread is here, detailing the contradictory messages that Giggle is setting: twitter.com/adulthumanfem10/status/1284062222155644929?s=20

Sall doesn't allow transmen on to her app (see 2nd image).
And Sall's app has a 'Sex Work' category for girls and women. (3rd image).

Sall appears on Twitter often posing as a GC woman asking questions such as "What is a man", yet her business model blurs the truth. Many many teen girls around the world are being lured into believing that this is a site for females only. But this is a dodgy site which some think is enabling grooming: twitter.com/lunarfish1524/status/1285544427004534785?s=20

Sorry for a potentially incoherent post, but please have a look and let me know I'm not being irrationally bonkers!

(PS I am blocked by her on Twitter, she blocks anyone immediately who asks rational questions)

@BrizzleGirl

I don't underhand PPs concerns about the use of the word girls to describe adult women.

Really really don't.

I go on girly holidays, girly weekends away, meet for a girls' night out. What's the problem?

And the name Giggle, again can't see a problem with that! I have a giggle with the girls on our girlie nights out! I think it a sounds fun name.

Now the name Twitter, that gets my back up, brings images of loads of old people just twittering on. Haha

My female friends and I don’t talk about ourselves like this and never have.

‘Lads’ isn’t derogatory in the same way; it’s not used to belittle and dismiss adult men out of hand. If anything it’s used to excuse infantile behaviour (see also ‘boys will be boys’) in men old enough to know better. ‘Girls’ is used to justify belittling adult women and not taking them seriously.

I think it's very nice that a light hearted app exists for younger females. They need it.

@sallgrover

I am late to this thread but thank you for creating a female only space. It may not be for everyone (some people have issues with the name) but I truly appreciate how hard you are trying to create the technology to do this. I also think it is incredibly brave to take this stance in the middle of all social media hate from lunatics.

In terms of the sex industry, I haven’t seen the app or this particular group but I can see that there could be a demand for mental health support for women who for various reasons feel forced to sell their bodies. I can also see that any form of mentoring in terms of health care, safety and managing to quit prostitution would be invaluable. I can imagine that these women often are trafficked or abused by men and that a female space to find the strength to improve your life would be useful.

I believe that you are trying very hard to improve the lives for women. I think you are getting a bit of a rough ride here.

I personally think that the criticism of your app should be more in the form of constructive feedback ie “have you thought about c aspect of the sex category?”, “are you sure it doesn’t result in y?” and “personally I wish the name wasn’t so girly, could you create a sister app with a more grownup name?”.

I do think that the women here, however frank and sometimes spiky have a lot of very valuable insights into feminism and could give good feedback on ideas. Obviously it is up to you as a business woman to take it onboard or not. I wish you keep popping in.

[quote sallgrover]@justawoman
What men think about women plays no part in my decision making process. Giggle is a place where women can be free from the perceptions of men.

As we all know, women’s oppression doesn’t come from gender. It’s from our biological sex.

Pink is just a color. Like green is for go or red is for stop. It’s just a shorthand, something we recognize. Pink doesn’t oppress women.

I don’t like the name Twitter. I think it’s a stupid name. But it’s never occurred to me to tell Jack Dorsey that. Sometimes I find it more misogynistic that people tell me how to run my company, based on their own taste & perceptions, than I find the word “giggle” to be problematic.

It’s just an app. Don’t use it if you don’t want to. Use it if you do want it. It’s supposed to be fun and, within the app, it is.[/quote]
Ok, sorry for the comment about customer service, I see that you did then reply to me properly.

The problem with the liberal feminist viewpoint ja illustrated here. You seem to think that perpetuating patriarchal narratives is or would be a personal failing, and that it’s possible for you to simply ignore what men think, or that the patriarchy is only what individual men think and do.

The radical feminist viewpoint says we are ALL conditioned by the patriarchy and we can’t simply take harmful narratives about women (eg, only men are proper adults; women particularly when they gather without men, are worthy of infantilisation and ridicule) out of context and say we’re using them in a way that doesn’t perpetuate that harm. It’s not about what any one individual thinks or intends; it’s about a whole system of patriarchal views of women that we can try and be self-critical enough not to reinforce.

I’m going to step away from this thread now because I’m getting a bit too involved in this discussion. It’s for personal reasons: I grew up in a family where it was and remains the norm to belittle the women; my father refused to call any of his daughters anything other than ‘girls’ even when we were mature professional women who’d done rather better than he did in life, and it was all very definitely part of his view that we were subordinate to him in every possible way. I cannot go near anyone who describes me as a ‘girl’ or infantilises me using terms like ‘giggle’ as a result. When I’ve been called a ‘girl’ in my adult life, and not just by my father, it’s invariably been a sign that the person is trying power games with me. I cannot imagine being able to relax in any space where I was invited to identify myself in that way.

@justawoman I didn’t make an app for radical feminists. I made an app for females. Giggle doesn’t require any women think a certain way to use it. Women with all different views are welcome. Radical feminists are as welcome on Giggle as liberal feminists are. Non-feminists are welcome. All political affiliations. Every race, religion and region. All ages 16+ (average Giggle age is 30s). The ONLY thing women on Giggle have in common is they are female.

I know how men think about women. I also know they are wrong. While men’s perceptions dont enter my mind, I admit I do enjoy a bit of, “Let’s show those misogynistic pricks what a giggle of girls can do”. But at the end of the day, it’s an app. Not a political statement.

@WoolOfBat thank you very much. We have a long list of suggestions from women at Giggle HQ. We do take them all on board and some we implement. Some things we ask direct to the users to find out what they want. It’s pretty democratic. X

Anyone interested in the Giggle topic should read the open letter that Sall wrote to the media: sallceo.medium.com/an-open-letter-to-the-media-53883dc71599... thank you @signalbox for the Twitter link that links to it.

I had been following Sall on Twitter and was surprised by this thread.
She explains the different messages in the letter. It was a deliberate change in policy. She started out wanting to be inclusive of transwomen read that she heard what we all hear, and sounds right on the surface but after receiving criticism on both sides she read up on the trans activist ideology as well as the gender-critical position. And she learned that allowing biological males on the app was NOT doing what she set out to do, i.e. create a safe place for females. So Giggle changed its policy.

Now, regarding a Sex Work category, that is a whole other thing! I downloaded the app to see for myself and, sure enough, under "mentor & network" there is a Sex Work category. I hypothesized that, for a woman who openly reports being sexually harrassed, a category like that would be meant to expose the myths of glamour in that industry; discuss the means of recruiting and how to talk to girls about it; disclose the real deal of it; how women have gotten out, etc. So I created a profile and am not willing to pay for a subscription. It seems more like real sex workers or women interested in becoming a sex worker. This disheartens me.

The branding and name would certainly be suitable for girls maybe 16-18......but older than that?? Really?? Those two words just make me think of teddy bears and lollypops. I guess it's created to attract women who don't mind this infantilising branding, and if that's what you're going for as a company, then ok, but it would have really put me off even when I was 18 years old.

@Cleanandpress

I think it's very nice that a light hearted app exists for younger females. They need it.

That's fair enough. If the company is going for a very very young crowd, then that would make sense.