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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An analogy

45 replies

FloraFox · 16/07/2020 17:48

A woman (AM) adopts a young child. She joins a new mothers' group where she is welcomed. One woman makes a comment about AM not being a real mother. A lot of other women scold her and say AM is a real mother and she should be ashamed of herself for saying this. They think it is true that AM isn’t the mother of her child in the way they are but it’s needlessly cruel to bring it up so they ask the woman to leave the group. AM asks all the women in the group to acknowledge that she is the real mother of her child. They do. New joiners are asked to confirm they agree AM is the real mother of her child. They all agree because, as AM says, her validity as a mother makes absolutely no difference to them as mothers.

AM feels a bit sad listening to stories about pregnancy, delivery or breastfeeding because she didn’t have those experiences. Some other mothers can see this and decide not ta talk about these things when AM is there. When they want to discuss some issues they are having physically as a result of childbirth, they have a separate chat so they can discuss their issues.

AM finds out about these separate chats and says she feels excluded and would like to be included in every chat. The other mothers agree but she is clearly sad when physical issues relating to motherhood are raised. Some mothers stop talking about their physical issues in those groups and some leave for another group where they can talk about all their issues with motherhood without feeling they’re making someone else feel uncomfortable. AM finds out about this other group and tells all the mothers in the original group that the members of the new group hate her and deny that she is a real mother. They agree.

Some women carry on talking about their physical issues. AM gets annoyed and says these discussions are making her feel excluded. She says the mothers should not discuss physical issues arising from childbirth in a mothers’ group because it’s not associated with being a mother. After all, everyone has agreed she is a real mother and she hasn’t had those issues so they are not issues relating to motherhood.

Some women say they are only talking about “biological” aspects of motherhood. AM says there aren’t any biological aspects of motherhood which she says is obvious because she is a mother and hasn’t had them. Those are the experience of gestators which is nothing to do with motherhood, that AM’s child’s gestator is not her mother because AM is her real mother, everyone has already agreed this.

AM also says that adoptive mothers have the hardest time of all the mothers because other people don’t believe they are real mothers and that makes some adoptive mothers want to kill themselves. AM says any other viewpoint is only based on hatred of her and denial of the fact that she is a real mother so anyone who disagrees or wants to discuss this hates her and denies her motherhood.

The other women are puzzled and don’t fully agree but they want to make sure AM feels good so they go along with it. Some women are struggling with incontinence, episiotomies, scar tissue and some have had vaginal mesh implants but they don’t want to make AM feel bad. The group agrees that any talk about physical consequences of childbearing is banned within the group as this is exclusionary to AM. Some of them are angry at the other mothers who had been their friends but now they are making AM feel sad and they can’t understand why they would be so cruel.

Meanwhile, AM has been lobbying for her doctor to be required to register the child as her biological child and to use her family history on the child’s medical records. She lobbies for her child’s certificate of adoption to be replaced with a birth certificate showing AM as the mother of the child from birth. She says you would only refuse this if you hate her and deny the validity of her motherhood.

Some women decide to set up a new group for gestators. They make it clear the group is for gestators to talk about the physical effects of motherhood. AM hears about this and complains that these women hate her and are trying to deny the reality of her motherhood. She says they have reduced everything about being a mother to just biology. She gets a group of people to tell the gestator group that they are hateful for denying AM’s motherhood. They decide the gestators shouldn’t be able to have meetings that exclude AM so they lobby the venues to stop the meeting going ahead. They stand outside and shout at the women going inside and call them names. They assault some of the women and set off flare guns and bang the windows. They find people in the gestators group and complain to their employers that they should be sacked for saying that being a gestator is part of motherhood and that they should be able to meet to talk about these things. After one firing, a judge declares that the belief that gestating a child is part of motherhood is a belief not worthy of respect in society.

OP posts:
Cascade220 · 16/07/2020 17:56

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FWRLurker · 16/07/2020 18:01

This analogy is useful to show the unreasonableness And privilege of the position of the TRA. Because an adoptive mother acting like this Wouldn’t be tolerated.

7Days · 16/07/2020 18:01

Well it is kind of isnt it Spartacus? What else is "gender" after all

FWRLurker · 16/07/2020 18:03

Spartacus - being a woman is In my opinion a social role in that, seeing I am female causes people to treat me differently than if they saw that I am male.

That is, society oppresses women because they are female.

FloraFox · 16/07/2020 18:07

I think there is a social role of being a woman - it's how people decide how to interact with you, whether I agree there should be a social role associated with being a woman or not.

The main point of the analogy is to show that we got to where we are in a series of steps, not in one leap.

Also, it's obvious that AM would have been told to FRO pretty early in this story.

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Cascade220 · 16/07/2020 18:09

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FloraFox · 16/07/2020 18:10

This was largely prompted by a discussion I was listening to on a podcast (can't remember which one) where they were saying that although TWAW is not actually true, it's cruel to go around saying so. Like saying "you're fat" to someone might be true but unnecessarily
rude and cruel. The people discussing this couldn't see the difference between saying TWAM and "you're fat".

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FloraFox · 16/07/2020 18:11

Sparticus I agree with you there should be no social role of being a woman but I think it's pretty hard to argue that in our society there is a social role of being a woman. If there wasn't, we wouldn't need feminism.

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FWRLurker · 16/07/2020 18:12

Spartacus, no, the qt position is that “being a woman’s is ONLY a social role.

The feminist position is that sex is the locus of oppression, gender (Social role / sex role stereotypes) is the oppression itself

The difference between how men and women are treated is gender aka “being a woman in a sexist world” as opposed to “being female”

Cascade220 · 16/07/2020 18:15

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Cascade220 · 16/07/2020 18:16

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FloraFox · 16/07/2020 18:24

Spartacus I agree that politeness and white lies are responsible for a lot of this - I was trying to get that across in my analogy.

OK, it doesn't work for you. It might have some resonance for others.

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Cascade220 · 16/07/2020 18:40

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BaseDrops · 16/07/2020 18:52

I’ve been in a group where an international adopter behaved exactly like that about birth, birth injuries, post partum continence, discussion of losing baby weight, breastfeeding. I couldn’t hack it so I left.

Btw I didn’t ask, no one did, we all got the whole story about choosing to adopt rather than have own kids, why international adoption and how she tried and failed to induce lactation to feed the baby who was bottle fed and 11 months old when adopted.

It was very uncomfortable.

AskDan · 16/07/2020 18:52

I am an adoptive parent and the analogy is totally unrealistic and a bit strange. The thing is that all the participants are female and think female and we are socialised not to make these sorts of concessions to other females. I think a group behavlviour would kick in and the adoptive mum would be frozen out.

Now if a couple decided that the Dad would he the SAHP and Dad walked into the new mums group.....

BaseDrops · 16/07/2020 18:53

It’s even as if we made any assumptions due to the baby’s appearance. None of us had seen her husband!

FloraFox · 16/07/2020 18:56

AskDan it's supposed to be unrealistic and strange and also to make you think women wouldn't accept this from another woman - see my follow up comment. But no more unrealistic or strange than the current situation with TWAW.

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AskDan · 16/07/2020 18:56

Basedrop - I have a wide circle of adopter friends and I would say trying to induce lactation is highly unusual

But, I have also left toddler groups because I didnt get on with some very opinionated people.

AskDan · 16/07/2020 18:59

Flora - I need to be careful how I phrase this. But women are socialised to defer or "be kind" to men.

TinaBarrow · 16/07/2020 19:00

Where I felt the shock was when she wanted to change the child's birth certificate.

AskDan · 16/07/2020 19:01

This is why for TRAs TMAM is an afterthought

BaseDrops · 16/07/2020 19:02

The whole thing was very odd and dominated the whole group. There were two other adoptive mothers in it who continuously looked torn between being supportive and thinking WTF.

Anyway, I don’t think the analogy works because it doesn’t mirror the fact that it’s a group who have privilege colonising a group without.

stillathing · 16/07/2020 19:04

Also, it's obvious that AM would have been told to FRO pretty early in this story.

Well, yes, no woman would ever get away with behaving like this!

I think this is useful for showing the incremental steps and how that masks the point at which the demands cease being reasonable.

msgloria · 16/07/2020 19:06

Personally I think an issue with this analogy is that it comes across as not being very kind, given all of the sensitivities around adoption. I'm with you on the underlying logic but I wouldn't expect to convince or influence anybody by using this in a debate.

Whenwillow · 16/07/2020 19:07

I think it is good as an analogy. Thank you for your thought provoking post. It makes clear how 'being kind' is not as straightforward as it seems.