Cambridge rape centre response help needed

[Newwayofthinking]

My post was lost on the other thread and I would like some help to draft a response back to them please....

I have had a response:

This was my email - As a rape survivor, the very last person I would want to speak to after being violated by a man. Is a man who identifies as a woman

Response

We write to respond to your email from 9th July.

Cambridge Rape Crisis Centre (CRCC) is an Equal Opportunities service in terms of both service provision and recruitment, and our services are run by women for women. CRCC’s phone and email support services are open to all who self-define as women, including (if they wish) those with complex gender identities which include ‘woman’, and those who experience oppression as women. CRCC affirms that self-definition is at the sole discretion of the individual in question. We also seek a diversity of volunteers who reflect the variety of women that we support, and this includes trans women.

Trans women are subject to the gender inequalities that all women experience on a daily basis, and are subjected to disproportionately high levels of sexual violence*. Trans survivors experience significant barriers when trying to seek support for the rape, sexual assault and/or sexual abuse they have been subjected to.

At Cambridge Rape Crisis Centre the safety of women and girls who use our services is paramount. We have many years of experience in safe and robust volunteer recruitment practices for all women who express interest in providing helpline and email support, and we deliver extensive training to all suitable applicants.

Kind regards,

The CRCC Team

*The Trans Sexual Violence Project in Wisconsin (USA), 2004, found that 45% of participants were survivors of sexual violence.

They have also assumed ‘trans’ = ‘transwomen’. Their statement that they do not treat transmen or boys means that they would refuse to treat the majority of participants in the study they quote as evidence of sexual violence suffered by transgender individuals.

Good point. Someone should point this out to them, I assume this is their copy and paste response.

At Cambridge Rape Crisis Centre the safety of women and girls who use our services is paramount. We have many years of experience in safe and robust volunteer recruitment practices for all women who express interest in providing helpline and email support, and we deliver extensive training to all suitable applicants.

How dare they write this after all the waffle beforehand..the safety of women and girls is clearly not priority, given the rest of the email..the priority is validation for male people, whilst gaslighting victims to tell then that men are women. No doubt with added kicking out of any woman who refuses to be re-educated. Fantastic.

Just looked at the ‘Volunteer with us’ page and any ‘self-identifying woman’ can volunteer and yet they “ offers support to women and girls ”.. No mention of self-identifying in their main blurb. Make up your mind.! Is the Cambridge Rape crisis for woman, or self-identifying woman!

Not what you’re looking for, but the arrogance of a man thinking he has any place answering calls at a rape crisis centre never ceases to amaze me. That trans identified man who wanted to push into the Vancouver Rape Crisis Centre ... just astounding. Women’s crisis services should centre women, trans identified men can do their own fundraising and open their own centres, I do not see why we have to (especially in times of trauma) budge over for male feelings.

If the rape centre uses male volunteers, that would possibly be fine, if they acknowledge they are male, and gives you the option of a female, if you prefer. Many males are good counsellors. In the same way that you can opt for a female gp at a doctors surgery, for example.

it's very striking that the response completely ignores that OP states she is a survivor of sexual violence.
I would expect any decent, person centred (sic) service to acknowledge this and respond directly to it rather than getting into an argument and trying to correct the OP's feelings
She is giving them very useful feedback on their service, ie that she would not use it! What's the bloody point of a service if the people it's aimed at can't or won't use it?

I'm disabled (and a victim of DV including rape). I find services often don't understand specific disability related issues. Specialist services aimed at helping disabled victims would help me so much. Wouldn't trans people like the same? Services that understand their specific circumstances, and life experience (and struggles). DV and rape charities already recognise the need for BAME specialist services. There are refuges and support services specifically for BAME people only. Now we need to do the same for disabled victims and trans victims.

Traumatised victims should be able to ask to speak to a different worker if they feel uncomfortable, re-traumatised, or scared without being made to feel bad. It doesn't always have to be about whether the person is male or female. I experienced an awful DV charity worker. Biological female. Deeply unpleasant person who shouldn't have been in the job. Anyone, male or female, working in the area of abuse or sexual assault should have enough empathy to understand if a victim needs to speak to a different worker - for whatever reason.

Not what you’re looking for, but the arrogance of a man thinking he has any place answering calls at a rape crisis centre never ceases to amaze me.

Quite. It always puzzled me, as you would expect anyone sincerely interested in working in this very challenging field to (obviously) be deeply compassionate to and aware of the very particular needs of females who have experienced rape, and to be the first to advocate for their needs to be met.

Then I read information from a TW leader of a women's mixed sex refuge, who just plain won't acknowledge the reality existing that there is a problem for some female people, blanks anyone saying or evidencing anything to the contrary and has no problem with them not receiving any services.

The only important thing about female trauma is how it affects men, either in benefitting or hindering themselves.

I know this isn't helpful, but this has been covered in two other threads on mumsnet.

They are saying that because they believe self identifying women are women this is how they will operate the service. They aren't bothered by the law.

I would ask them that in advertising the service as being for women and girls 99.9% of the population would take that to mean biological females. Despite twitter (and mumsnet!) many, may people are not aware of the trans issue.

So in fact it is a cruel joke to advertise as being for women and girls and then expect a woman or girl phoning them to just accept that the male voice answering them is actually female because inside the cult that is now running the service they say it is "true".

It is as insulting and disturbing as someone from the BAME community ringing a support line for victims of racism and having Rachel Dolezal answer the phone saying its okay you can talk to me I may be white but I "identify" as black.

What they are saying is not covered by law (and if newspaper articles are true) not likely to be in the near future. ie Truss is expected to say no to self id.

So this is basically misleading advertising.

They should not be abusing their postion as those currently running the service to impose their beliefs on those who phone.

And I think Rape Crisis England and Wales whose logo they used should be asked to make it clear that their members should not mis-advertise.

So either ask they to withdraw their misleading advertising or you will go to the ASA.

Or ask that they make it clear on the pages describing the actual services that women phoning for support may get a male person who identifies as a woman.

Sorry if this comes over a bit terse but short on time.

They are entitle to their set of beliefs, but they cannot through deception enforce them on others - let alone those in a vulnerable state.

Would it be useful to pose the question that if a TW victim of sexual violence rang and perceived the voice at the end of the line to be male (however the owner of that voice identified) then the service is not suitable for them, either?

Notes on exemptions here:

publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmwomeq/1470/147010.htm

@Michelleoftheresistance

Not what you’re looking for, but the arrogance of a man thinking he has any place answering calls at a rape crisis centre never ceases to amaze me.

Quite. It always puzzled me, as you would expect anyone sincerely interested in working in this very challenging field to (obviously) be deeply compassionate to and aware of the very particular needs of females who have experienced rape, and to be the first to advocate for their needs to be met.

Then I read information from a TW leader of a women's mixed sex refuge, who just plain won't acknowledge the reality existing that there is a problem for some female people, blanks anyone saying or evidencing anything to the contrary and has no problem with them not receiving any services.

The only important thing about female trauma is how it affects men, either in benefitting or hindering themselves.

This.

I'd be devastated if I sought email support, too, and found someone born male might be providing it. There's no compelling evidence that brain sex is a real thing. A sincere belief doesn't change a fact, which is biology exists, it's real, and it's why women are overwhelmingly the people raped, and men the ones who rape. It's completely wrong to tell vulnerable, traumatised women that they are accessing a single sex space, and then exposing them to the risk of a male person being their counsellor.

They are not centring their client group with this at all.

My one reservation would be if they are seeking trans women to support other trans women. That would be completely legitimate and understandable, and wouldn't in any way risk the wellbeing of the women and girls they seek to support. But that's not what they are saying in their response, is it.

Here are a few questions you could ask. I'd certainly love to see an answer to even just one of them:

If a female survivor asks for a female-only therapeutic environment, is this available at your centre?

Does she have to specifically ask for a female-only therapeutic environment or is this offered as standard?

Do you acknowledge that perception is subjective and that unlike you, a female survivor may perceive males as male regardless of their identity?

Do you accept that involuntary trauma responses to males, of any identity, are not rooted in the survivor's prejudice against males who identify as trans, but in her experience of male violence?

Given that female survivors typically only approach your service when they are in crisis and vulnerable, do you understand that they may feel unable to raise concerns with you about the presence of males in what they expect (and you advertise) to be a female-only therapeutic environment?

The Rape Crisis National Service Standards state that

Underpinning the approach of all specialist Rape Crisis Centres is an evidence-based understanding of how experiences of sexual violence and sexual abuse can impact individual survivors. Rape Crisis Centres provide a trauma informed approach to practice and delivery that is both appropriate to and effective when supporting survivors of all forms of sexual violence.

Can you explain how your centre can meet this high standard of service delivery in a mixed-sex therapeutic environment, given the strength of the evidence on the needs of female survivors to recover in a female-only therapeutic environment?

Can you explain how a mixed-sex therapeutic environment is appropriate and effective in delivering your service to female survivors of male sexual violence, especially given that most if not all female survivors can only recover in a female-only therapeutic environment?

Are you aware that your stated refusal to cater to female survivors who identify as trans is unlawful discrimination on the basis of sex if these females remain legally female (that is if they are not in possession of a Gender Recognition Certificate?)

Are you aware that if you are catering to male survivors who identify as trans who remain legally male while refusing to cater to all other legal males, you are also unlawfully discriminating against the latter group?

A service can only legally exclude males if it applies a sex-based exemption, which applies differently to males who identify as trans with a GRC and those without a GRC.

How are you ensuring that you deliver a lawful service given your stated ideological position on including all males who identify as trans, regardless of their legal sex, and excluding all females who identify as trans, regardless of their legal sex?

Are you seeking feedback from your service users on providing a mixed-sex therapeutic environment? And if you do so, are you seeking this feedback in a way that allows female survivors to raise any concerns they may have without fear of reprisals or loss of access to your service?

What processes do you have in place to deal with a female survivor who raises concerns with you directly? Do these processes align with the National Service Standards?

Charlie wow. ALL of that. All of it. Every word.

P.S. I don't want to upset you any more than you already are, but please be prepared to be met with indifference to any concerns you raise.

I am part of a group of survivors who are or were self-excluding from Rape Crisis Services who met with management to share our concerns and suggest solutions in service delivery that would meet the needs of both female survivors and male survivors who identify as trans. They couldn't have cared less if they tried. One of the most upsetting meetings of my life. The aftermath was bad enough, but what hurt even more was that they are continuing to claim on social media and in the press that there are no issues whatsoever with including males who identify as trans in their service. As if our meeting had never happened.

We found out later btw that we weren't even the first survivors to raise the issue with them.

They are more interested in endorsing and promoting transgender ideology and legislation than meeting the needs of female survivors. In my experience, any service that sends out emails like the one you received is firmly on that path, the consequences to female survivors be damned.

Wow. I'm crying just typing that and I fucking hate crying.

I just still cannot believe it. Even though I was there and they looked me in the face and spouted this shite. I still can't believe that happened.

Charlie - several good points to raise.

CharlieParley

Bloody hell Charlie

That's appalling. Utterly appalling, I am so sorry that happened to you.

One of the worst parts of this is the stepping over nasty bits of reality that don't fit, the endless pretence that only the bits that serve the agenda exist. This agenda treats females in a way that is truly abhorrent, the lack of care or interest for others is abhorrent, the hypocrisy of the values that only apply to males who identify in a way that fits the agenda is abhorrent.

This should be in the papers. The reality of this cannot be covered up. Females are not props in male lives. I am so sorry you were let down by people who purport to be caring and inclusive and morally superior. I have serious concerns for the morals of anyone who think treating anyone like this is ever something that can be tolerated in a civilised society. Those who stand behind these politics are lying to themselves and enabling these behaviours, they need to own it.

'Those with complex gender identities which include women'

That bit doesn't sit right with me at all.
So potentially people who live as male by day but fancy answering the phone to female rape victims because their identity is complex and they coincidentally identify as female for this particular role?
Ye, that will never happen will it and their is no potential for abuse at all

And one of the things that needs to be owned, and told to the general public is the belief held by this political agenda:

females who will not obey and defer to males should be rightfully excluded from services

Those females are tax payers. Those females are voters. Those females are 51% of the fucking population. Where the fucking hell are the MPs and the government?

Ah apologies I've read the original email totally wrong however I think my point still stands... I can totally see how some men would get their kicks calling up to speak to women about rape.
How can people not see how self identifying is just a complete nightmare ?

So potentially people who live as male by day but fancy answering the phone to female rape victims because their identity is complex and they coincidentally identify as female for this particular role?

We were told flat out that the minimum threshold for the inclusion of a male in what they claim is a female-only therapeutic environment is a verbal statement of identity.

No changes whatsoever. Not even pronouns or name, not appearance or mannerisms, let alone any actual transition.

A bloke who looks, sounds and behaves like your typical bloke is accepted by a service once set up to help women recover from the sexual violence they experienced at the hands of men now accepts a man is not merely a woman but female on his say so. And we are nothing more than collateral damage in the service's new mission to uphold his human right to his identity.

I wish I was making this up.

I agree that if a victim asks for a woman they should get a born female woman to talk to.
But I personally found that I was more comfortable discussing my rape with men, not women. The women were too quick to judge me from the security of their not experiencing what I went through. It was men that had actually sympathy for me and restored my confidence that all men were not like my rapists.

Charlie I am just beyond angry by how appallingly you were treated. If there is anything I can do to help you take this further please do not hesitate to ask. I would hope the Baroness, JK Rowling and FPFW among the other many excellent pro female people with means of getting their voice heard are aware, because so many people think this is just theoretical.

It isn't. Female people are being excluded now from any services in order to provide males with all the choices of services. It's indefensible. It's wrong.