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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

End to the right to trial by jury?

33 replies

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 11:57

One for your radar with massive ramifications due to under representation of BAME people and women as Judges and Magistrates.

This story isn't being given column inches by newspapers.

It should be front page.

A thread by the secret barrister

Secret Barrister @barristersecret
I worry that this seismic change to our constitution is not being given the attention it urgently warrants. So I'll say again:

The government wants to abolish jury trials in order to address a court backlog caused by its own cuts, under the pretence that it was caused by Covid.

Pre-Covid, there was a backlog of 39,000 cases in the Crown Court. The govt was content with this appalling state of affairs; happy to make defendants, victims & witnesses wait years for justice.

^Covid has pushed the backlog to 41,000.
This, apparently, demands urgent action.^

41,000 cases is unacceptable. It requires urgent action. But that action is not tearing up the right to jury trial, and replacing it with trial by a single judge and two magistrates.

Action means resourcing the system properly, re-opening courts, sourcing alternative venues.

While the backlog, and the delay, has been increasing over recent years - due, I'll say it again, to political decisions to remove funding from the courts - it is not the greatest ever.

In 2014, there was a backlog of over 50,000 cases. Nobody suggested removing jury trial.

Recent days have seen senior and retired judges speaking out, saying what a smashing idea it would be to replace juries in certain cases with trial by a judge, just like them, and two magistrates, just like their friends.

It would be a disaster. Make no mistake.

This brilliant thread by @Joanna__Hardy illustrates the problem with representation in the judiciary.

Joanna Hardy @ Joanna_hardy
If a restriction on jury trials is going to be seriously suggested by serious people in serious circumstances then let’s get real.

A little thread

I’m a lawyer (sorry) so I’ll first hit you with some figures. I’ve been reading some spreadsheets. Hold onto your hats.

Circuit Judges are a good place to start. They are a type of Judge who would try lots of these trials.

Of those who answered the question about ethnicity in the July 2019 statistics - and, in fairness, not everyone answered - 4% of Circuit Judges were from a BAME background.

There’s a spreadsheet you can read. Which I did.

Of the Circuit Judges who answered the ethnicity question, 12 said they were Asian or Asian British, 5 said they had a mixed ethnicity and 4 said they were from another ethnic group. 3 said that they were Black or Black British.

Not 3% (of those who answered).

3 Circuit Judges (of those who answered).

You could fit them in a car.

You’ll want to contrast that against the over representation of minority ethnic groups in the Criminal Justice System. The latest figures suggest minority groups are over represented at the following stages:

  • stop and search
  • arrest
  • custodial sentencing
  • prison population

The lay magistracy - who it is suggested would sit with a judge in pairs - is more racially diverse. Which is, I suppose, a start.

However - uh oh - 84% of them are over the age of 50.

Magistrates can be appointed from the age of 18.

Do you know how many are under 30?

1%

Please don’t get me started on how many defendants are aged between 18-29.

And don’t ever get me started on how many under 18s - children - end up in the Crown Court.

There are more spreadsheets.

I’ve read them.

In Northumbria, the stats show there wasn’t a single magistrate under the age of 30 when the figures were reported. Not one.

(As an aside - young people, please apply to be Magistrates).

So I’ve hit you with the stats. But why does it matter? It matters because when I represent someone from a minority background or a young person or both they (regularly) see a Judge who doesn’t look or sound like them.

“Will the Judge get it?” I’m often asked. They’re asking will the Judge understand the choices I made, the phrases I use, my social media posts, the things we do where I live, the challenges I face, the norms of my age and my community.

Will they get it? Will they get me? Will they get this? Is this fair? Does it look fair? Does it feel fair?

And I always say the same thing. “The Judge doesn’t get to decide - the 12 voices on the jury decide.”

And then the Judge tells everyone that Judges don’t get to decide.

“There are 13 judges” they tell juries. “You 12 are the judges of the facts. And I’m the judge of the law.”

12 voices. 12 experiences. 12 opinions and journeys and bruises and lessons and everything a human picks up along the way.

Those are the qualifications needed to judge other humans. Not law degrees and enthusiasm.

It’s often not a perfect mix. But it is always the better one.

Juries can judge facts. They can spot a liar and they hate liars. They can hear honesty in the heartbreak, in the ferocity, in the silence. They sometimes hear stories so raw, so painful that the room reels - they can barely bring themselves to listen, to judge. But they do.

And as we search for who can best assess the honesty, the desires, the wants, the greed, the motives of fellow humans - we don’t need to look much further. This, the most human task of all, should not be professionalised or restricted.

Not for expediency.

Not for a backlog.

As far as defence briefs go - this could be our most important. Lawyers of the future will ask what we did, what we said when they suggested eroding it. For those of us holding this crumbling, miserable system together - the jury trial is the only glimmer. Let’s keep it shining.

The secret barrister @ barristersecret
Readers of my book will know from Chapter 2 the problems with our magistrates' courts, and the way we appoint and train magistrates. The senior judiciary, sadly, are wholly unaware. They have not appeared in a magistrates' court for decades. They do not see what we see.

These wise judicial heads will be rolled out by the government over coming weeks to show how sensible and moderate and not-at-all-worrying it would be to replace juries with judges and magistrates.

With respect, they do not speak with knowledge or authority on this subject.

Please do not be distracted or conned.

The government has had since March to identify 'Nightingale' courts to make jury trial workable. It has done nothing. It has sat on its hands, letting the backlog grow.

Now it will say that there is no choice but to replace juries.

Lie.

So, for those at the back:

🔴The court backlog was caused by govt cuts, not Covid
🔴We had a bigger backlog in 2014 and nobody suggested abolishing juries
🔴Any decision to replace juries with judges & magistrates would be in the interests of government, not justice.

P.S. To deal with those hijacking this conversation for other agendas, this is not saying that juries are perfect and the system cannot be improved. They are not, and I think it definitely can.

But the government is not promising to improve justice - just to make it cheaper.

P.S. To deal with those hijacking this conversation for other agendas, this is not saying that juries are perfect and the system cannot be improved. They are not, and I think it definitely can.

But the government is not promising to improve justice - just to make it cheaper.

Huge implications here. And very much against the point that recent marches and protests for women and the BAME community were trying to make.

OP posts:
CaraDune · 26/06/2020 12:18

Thanks for posting this - this is indeed bloody terrifying. I like the "three point summary" for those at the back:

🔴 The court backlog was caused by govt cuts, not Covid
🔴 We had a bigger backlog in 2014 and nobody suggested abolishing juries
🔴 Any decision to replace juries with judges & magistrates would be in the interests of government, not justice.

yellowsunset · 26/06/2020 12:21

This sounds awful. Generally speaking the cuts to legal aid have been disgraceful so I'm not surprised they've pulled a stunt like this.

happydappy2 · 26/06/2020 12:25

Interesting, thanks for posting. I have heard rumours of Nightingale courts to help clear the backlog. It really is indefensible to have let the situation get so overwhelmed.

WhatAWonderfulDay · 26/06/2020 12:30

That's massive. Is there anything we can do?
Petitions, meetings...

IrenetheQuaint · 26/06/2020 12:33

Has anyone done an analysis of jury decision-making on rape and sexual assault? Historically a massive issue due to rape myths and general misogyny amongst the general population. I have no idea if magistrates tend to make different decisions but would find a comparative analysis extremely useful.

OvaHere · 26/06/2020 12:37

@IrenetheQuaint

Has anyone done an analysis of jury decision-making on rape and sexual assault? Historically a massive issue due to rape myths and general misogyny amongst the general population. I have no idea if magistrates tend to make different decisions but would find a comparative analysis extremely useful.
We had a thread discussing it last year and Julie Bindel wrote an article.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3608448-rape-cases-in-front-of-a-jury?pg=1

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/21/juries-rape-trials-myths-justice

user12699422578 · 26/06/2020 12:38

That would be more credible and carry more weight with people (including those they accuse of "hijacking" it for "other agendas") if it didn't romanticise juries and exaggerate.

But it is always the better one.

Patently untrue. "Always"? No.

Not the way to bring people on side.

OvaHere · 26/06/2020 12:38

Just to add I don't think the conversations around the specific crime of rape are the same as what the OP has outlined.

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 12:40

That's massive. Is there anything we can do?
Petitions, meetings...

Get the story noticed and make the press understand its something that people understand and value would be a start.

Has anyone done an analysis of jury decision-making on rape and sexual assault? Historically a massive issue due to rape myths and general misogyny amongst the general population. I have no idea if magistrates tend to make different decisions but would find a comparative analysis extremely useful.

I don't know. I am sure there must be something in this area if someone researches into it.

I think the review into the family courts and how Magistrates are not understanding of what coercise control is never mind what the law is in this area is a good place to start as it highlights a system where there is a) a lack of transparency b) there isn't a jury system and families are at the mercy of Magistrates who tend to be unrepresentative.

We already know there is a problem in this area and its accepted as being a problem.

My feeling is that over all it will tend to lend itself to a growing sense and perception of 'the criminalisation of the poor'.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 12:42

Just to add I don't think the conversations around the specific crime of rape are the same as what the OP has outlined.

It's not.

It won't affect rape trials (for the time being at least) however rape cases highlight the institutionalised nature of the problem.

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 26/06/2020 12:43

Many criminal trials in Scotland are not held before a jury. The High Court deals with the most serious crimes (e.g murder/ rape) sitting with a judge and a jury of 15.

Most criminal trials are dealt with in the Sheriff Courts before a Sheriff (roughly equivalent to English county court judge) and many will not have a jury.

There is no right to demand trial by jury. The Crown Office and the Procurator Fiscal service determine whether a case will be held under solemn procedure (with a jury) or summary (no jury)

Scotland generally does not have long delays in bringing cases to trial as England does. A confession without corroboration is not sufficient for a guilty verdict

happydappy2 · 26/06/2020 12:43

Doesn't the magistrate court only hear cases where the max penalty is 6 months in prison? Ie petty crimes not rape?

bluebluezoo · 26/06/2020 12:45

How do you become a magistrate then? I thought yoi had to be a lawyer?

Roomba · 26/06/2020 12:51

You don't need to be a lawyer, do you? My friend's father became one, and he ran a local business. Definitely not a lawyer. He was also sexist, racist, homophobic and not particularly intelligent - I wouldn't want him deciding my future!

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 12:56

How do you become a magistrate then? I thought yoi had to be a lawyer

No. Anyone can become a magistrate. You receive training on the job. The main barrier to doing it is that it's an unpaid role you do in the name of civic interest. Naturally there are reasons you don't get too many women in their 20s and 30s applying for the role.

OP posts:
ChurchOfWokeApostate · 26/06/2020 12:57

Most criminal trials are dealt with in the Sheriff Courts before a Sheriff (roughly equivalent to English county court judge) and many will not have a jury

But then the sheriff courts can block you from going to the high court/Supreme Court, so there’s that.

No system is perfect, but how the wind is blowing makes me feel very uneasy for justice, the way the ‘woke’ are silencing the ‘dissenters’, how entire industries are being ‘captured’, makes me worry that justice will be doled out based on agendas. You’re not really going to get it as much with the ‘man off the street’
That’s my feelings

RedToothBrush · 26/06/2020 13:00

www.gov.uk/become-magistrate/can-you-be-a-magistrate

Who can be a magistrate
You need to give up some of your spare time and not everyone can serve as a magistrate.

You do not need formal qualifications or legal training to become a magistrate.

You will get full training for the role, and a legal adviser in court will help you with questions about the law.

You have to be over 18 and under 65.

Magistrates must retire at 70 and are normally expected to serve for at least 5 years.

You need to be able to hear clearly, with or without a hearing aid, to listen to a case.

You also need to be able to sit and concentrate for long periods of time.

You need to show you’ve got the right personal qualities, for example that you are:

aware of social issues
mature, understand people and have a sense of fairness
reliable and committed to serving the community

You also need to be able to:
understand documents, follow evidence and communicate effectively
think logically, weigh up arguments and reach a fair decision

It’s unlikely you’ll be taken on if you have been:
found guilty of a serious crime
found guilty of a number of minor offences
banned from driving in the past 5 to 10 years
declared bankrupt

You cannot be a magistrate if you work in one of a small number of jobs where there could be a conflict of interest - for instance if you are a police officer.

You will need to be in court for at least 13 days a year, which are usually full days.

Discuss with your employer how you will balance your work and magistrate duties.

Your employer must, by law, allow you reasonable time off work to serve as a magistrate.

You will get your rota well in advance, so you can give your employer plenty of notice of when you’ll be in court.

Magistrates are not paid, but many employers allow their employees time off with pay.

If you lose out on pay, you can claim an allowance at a set rate, as well as allowances for travel and subsistence.

You will need training to be a magistrate.

The training when you start will add up to about 21 hours, or 3 and a half days, as well as some meetings.

The training could take place over:

a long weekend
weekdays
short evening sessions over several weeks

OP posts:
ConstantlySeekingHappiness · 26/06/2020 13:04

I agree with everything @DidoLamenting has said re Scotland.

I am a criminal solicitor is Scotland.

This issue was canvasses in recent weeks/months by the Scottish government as a means of reducing the significant backlog here.

It receives overwhelmingly criticism and the Scottish Government chose not to implement it (the running of solemn trials without a Jury).

There was criticism from all sides. One of the arguments was that England and Wales weren’t considering this approach at all and their courts were up and running again sooner during Covid restrictions.

The backlog in Scotland remains sizeable.

TornadoOfSouls · 26/06/2020 13:06

I’ve got mixed feelings on this.

Firstly, I don’t trust this govt to implement these sorts of changes fairly, efficiently, or even cheaply.

That aside, it’s pretty clear that juries don’t do a good job in rape/sexual offence cases. If the blogger meant to exclude those cases from the analysis s/he should have said so.

It could be argued that more diversity among magistrates and judges would not only mitigate some of the problems if the right to jury trial was reduced but have benefits throughout the justice system. Appointing a more diverse range of people should be a matter of urgency anyway.

Senior criminal judges have massive experience of human behaviour. They are not all out of touch, deaf old codgers. I take the point that they don’t have recent experience in the magistrates court but they should not be waved away just because they are mainly from a certain demographic.

I’ll think more about this but there must be a balance to be struck between cost and time - justice delayed is justice denied and all that - no less serious offences.

PerkingFaintly · 26/06/2020 13:06

Good grief!

Thank you for this thread, RTB.

ChurchOfWokeApostate · 26/11/2025 12:43

Bumping this, wtf is going on

Grammarnut · 26/11/2025 16:47

CaraDune · 26/06/2020 12:18

Thanks for posting this - this is indeed bloody terrifying. I like the "three point summary" for those at the back:

🔴 The court backlog was caused by govt cuts, not Covid
🔴 We had a bigger backlog in 2014 and nobody suggested abolishing juries
🔴 Any decision to replace juries with judges & magistrates would be in the interests of government, not justice.

Labour have a history, lately, of wrecking the constitution. This lot seem to want to introduce a more 'European' trial form. They without doubt have another agenda, as did Blair in his constitutional wreckage where to make the head of the judiciary 'less open to bias' he/she became an elected MP chosen at the discretion of the PM (who said head of judiciary outranks).

selffellatingouroborosofhate · 26/11/2025 19:34

A magistrate or judge must take an oath of loyalty to the King.

A juror doesn't.

If you are an Irish republican, or are any other kind of anti-monarchist, and find yourself in the dock, there is zero chance of the person who decides your fate being sympathetic to your view unless you are being tried by a jury. If your views on the monarchy are percieved as related to the charges against you, this could bias the magistrate or judge against you.

We already have a history of miscarriages of justice against people charged with terrorism offences allegedly motivated by Irish nationalism, e.g. the Birmingham Six. Removing the one chance someone has of being tried by a fellow anti-monarchist will increase the chance of that happening again.

logiccalls · 26/11/2025 19:58

Isn't this just the same as every other one of the endless demands to spend unlimited billions of taxpayers' money, to keep doing more and more of exactly the same thing which is failing to work properly? The Way Things Have Always Been Done is not, after all, sacred.

Admittedly, tinkering slightly is insufficient, when what is invariably required, would involve "Let's examine what we want to achieve, then copy, or invent, a way to get the best results".