Please can we talk about using the name Karen as an insult?

[NiceKaren]

I'm seeing the name Karen being used as an insult all over social media. It started as a meme, but in the last few days I've seen 'Karen' being blamed for panic buying, refusing to self-isolate and general selfishness. My name is Karen and in these tricky times it feels really unpleasant to see my name being used this way. It feels sexist, ageist and most likely classist too. Now I'm seeing it on MN as well and it makes me so sad. I can't help my name and while I used to laugh it off, I'm feeling quite upset by it tonight. Why do people do this?

I suppose I'm just posting for solidarity and wondering whether there is any point in trying to call this sort of thing out? Before, I felt it was just me being precious or unable to take a joke but now it feels quite personal and ugly.

[DidoLamenting]

I can't remember if it was Karen which was used or a similar name that is apparently acceptable to laugh at but I've seen this used on FWR as an insult. Apart from a comment by me no one else picked up on it.

I know Karens and Susans ranging from teens to early 60s in age.

[DidoLamenting]

JurgenKloppsCat

A Gammon is definitely a male stereotype - white, middle aged, outraged and brexity. It's an insult thrown at men. Mind you, they don't half gripe about it when you say it. It turns their ruddy little cheeks a couple of shades darker

It's a stupid, lazy insult - as you have just demonstrated by your post.

[Winesalot]

So while we are in the swing...

Who is this Beryl that she deserves to be a ‘type’ of woman as well please?

[SunsetBeetch]

Oddly enough, I've never heard a man refer to someone as a 'Karen'. It's always been women using the put down about another woman, in my experience.

I appreciate that others' experiences might be different, but it took this OP to make me realise the above. And now I'm quite depressed.

I've seen it used by men loads of times.

[DidoLamenting]

I've only seen it on MN where the posters are presumably overwhelmingly female.

[JenNtonic]

🙄🙄🙄 This thread is TYPICALLY Karen 😁 xx

[IAmFleshIAmBone]

The only Beryls I can think of are Beryl the Peril and Beryl Bainbridge

[KaronAVyrus]

What is typically Karen?

[Parkrunner25]

It is horrible, but I don't think it's inherently sexist - apparently a male Karen is a Kyle.

[Cucumbersalad]

Just wanted to say, I love the name Karen (and Susan too). Due a revival! 💐

[SunsetBeetch]

I don't think Kyle gets used nearly so much as Karen. Did a search on both names on twitter to check, and found this lovely meme.

[JurgenKloppsCat]

A Gammon is definitely a male stereotype - white, middle aged, outraged and brexity. It's an insult thrown at men. Mind you, they don't half gripe about it when you say it. It turns their ruddy little cheeks a couple of shades darker. It's a stupid, lazy insult - as you have just demonstrated by your post.

I think we are getting to the nub of what memes are. Yes, exactly. It's to identify a subgroup linked by a belief or attitude. It isn't an individual. I think most people know this. In the world of memes, Karen is a state of mind, an attitude, not an entry on a birth certificate. You can be called Elizabeth or Margaret or Jenny or Bella or Julie or Martha, and still be 'a Karen'. You can be called Karen and not be 'a Karen'.

I hope that's cleared it up

[Winesalot]

It was on a thread about Lisa Nandy.

Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too.

I am just wondering who the Beryl was that inspired this label. I must admit I had to walk away from the thread when Beryl started being thrown around. The name caused me a great deal of pain as a kid. obviously I am all over it now....

[SunsetBeetch]

I mean lovely as in OF COURSE they blame "Karen".

[SunsetBeetch]

Yes most of us are aware of what a meme is Jürgen. The point is, it's being used to characterise the people who are not social distancing and are hoarding food, when this behaviour is present in people of all ages and both sexes.

This is when memes are unhelpful, at best.

[Al1Langdownthecleghole]

Oddly enough, I've never heard a man refer to someone as a 'Karen'. It's always been women using the put down about another woman, in my experience.

I agree, Sara.

Let's be honest It's a bitchy shorthand, used by people who know perfectly well that calling people hags, chavs or racist names would get them into trouble, so instead, they choose to use Karen, Tiffany or Dolores instead. It's actually really transparent and we see you.

[aliasundercover]

The only Beryls I can think of are Beryl the Peril and Beryl Bainbridge


In that case you should read about Beryl Burton

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Burton

[IAmFleshIAmBone]

@aliasundercover thanks I will!

[R0wantrees]

Beryl isn't just the internalized socialization that hurts a woman herself, she's a representation of the tendency to try to force other women to abide by that socialization too.

I am just wondering who the Beryl was that inspired this label.

OP arranfan wrote,
"Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?"

PackingSoap wrote,
"Embarrassingly, it's taken me until my early 40s to realise my gender programming has pretty much screwed up my life. It's kept me stuck, unable to move forward with what I really want to do.

I made the decision last night to refer to the gender programming in my life as "Beryl." I have this idea that if I label the behaviours as an alien persona, I can somehow divorce them from myself.

For me, Beryl is most obvious when it comes to priorities: the housework being placed above developing my own skills and knowledge, for example. She pretty much drives all the practical "shoulds" in my life.

I hate her and want to destroy her. Yes, it's that bad. I think she's influenced a frightening number of decisions in my life, which, of course, meant I ended up with Beryl's life, rather than mine, which just entrenched her more.

Unpicking it and eradicating her influence is going to be hard going. So much of it is just automatic. It's not so much kindness with me as this odd sense of my role to be a supporting character in other people's lives.

Have you heard that "cheer leader" song that's popular at the moment? That just exemplifies the whole fucking problem: females as 24/7 personal assistants to lily livered males."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3412053-Mumsnet-FWR-Guide-to-De-Programming-Yourself-From-Self-Harming-Kindness

[Winesalot]

Thanks R0wantrees for clearing that up for me.

Whereas to me, the Beryls that I was named after were bloody awesome in achieving things despite their ‘gender programming’ and set me, as a Beryl, a great example.

I guess it is just proof that giving a random actual persons name to personify a negativity is not a great move. If people have a character to reference it on, it is quite a different thing altogether. Eg. If Karen was an unlikeable character in a tv series or a politician it works a bit better than giving a generational name to something negative.

That Beryl Burton sounds like a legend doesn’t she Alias?

[IAmFleshIAmBone]

I've just remembered Beryl Cook, the artist.

[Winesalot]

Well, you could say some of Beryl Cook’s pieces make statements relevant to today’s women’s rights issues.

Thanks for the ‘Beryl’ love!! That is really nice, but now that Rowantrees has explained, it is onwards for more Karen’s.

I grew up with some Karen’s (it was popular in my area) and they were mostly very lovely people.

[Lynda07]

I didn't understand it either, now I know. 'Sharon' also went through the same. I agree it's not fair but there's nothing you can do about it, it will run its course.

Karen is an OK name. One of my husband's cousins had a girl they called Karen and she's nice.

I don't see what's 'ageist' about it.

[Cwenthryth]

Haven’t RTFT yet but I reported multiple posts on that “am I a Karen” thread that contributed nothing to the conversation apart from being nasty and using “Karen” as an insult. MNHQ emailed saying they are “looking into it” but they have not been deleted

[lizzzyyliveson]

It's ageist because it is a name for women who are middle-aged. I hate that younger women are using this. It is not based on reality. I'd like to tell them:

Karen is the TA who mopped up your tears when you fell down in KS1.

Karen is the dental nurse who held your hand when you had your first check up.

Karen is the hairdresser who chopped off your orange bits when you bleached without reading the instructions (and didn't laugh once).

Karen is the lady you ran to in the park when you were scared by older boys.

In short, Karen is all of us. They are not laughing at a particular woman named Karen, they are sneering at every woman over the age of 40. So it doesn't matter if you know a nice Karen or if you think it is an OK name. The attitude behind it needs to stop. Especially now that it will be Karen ventilating you in the ER.