M&S + John Lewis - your poor Christmas sales will be due to the contempt you've shown your female customers

[Sunkisses]

It's all over the news that M&S and John Lewis have had terrible Christmas sales. I am absolutely sure this is due to the terrible press coverage they received and viral threads of Twitter about how they allow men into the female changing rooms, the contempt they treated their female customers with when we voiced our complaints, and the 1,000s of us who pledged not to shop with them over Christmas. I stuck by my pledge over Christmas and they lost about £1,000 of custom from me with gifts and food. Anyone else kept up their boycott?

I'll never buy from M&S again. There was a large male hovering behind me several months ago at the lingerie section in Glasgow. He was in 'women's clothes' but so obviously male. It really creeped me out, was right next to the women's changing rooms too. The thought of that near me in the changing rooms sickens me. I walked out of the store as quick as I could that day.

Members on here do seem to experience a high number of these 'encounters'. Almost beyond any statistical likelihood some would say.

Haven't RTFT

But to those who think it's not on people's radar in the real world. it is.

Thanks to the sudden change in single sex toilet facilities for women nearly everywhere you go now. Its now on many peoples radar.

I was listening to absolute Radio the other week and the presenters were talking about being out in club and the Male presenter commented that he walked into the female presenter in the toilets and was surprised as he hadn't realised it was mixed sex. He was quite uncomfortable about the change in facilities but said his female co worker was really really annoyed about it, She agreed she was angry but didn't say anything else on it.

Unfortunately I don't think he really understood why she was so annoyed.

I believe that as much as I believe most of the exaggerations on here. Bit like the one where the majority of you have supposedly met a trans person in a changing room

Once again, this is not about hate, it is about women's dignity and privacy when undressed. M&S are not saying "Transwomen are allowed in women's changing rooms", what they are saying is "customers can use the changing room in which they feel most comfortable". I can't believe we are going over this ground again. This means that any random man can enter a woman's changing room, right?

You act as though none of us have seen as transperson in real life.

People here have trans children, were/are married to trans, I have a trans sibling. We work with them and have trans neighbours.

This is about women's rights and boundaries, but you always bring it back to trans. As if you have an agenda or something. Because, you know, if you think this board is so hateful you don't have to read...or post...

All clothes shops in the UK allow trans women to use the female changing rooms.

What's a "trans woman"? do you mean that just by saying "I identify as a woman" they will let you use them? Or do you mean something else that you've decided constitutes the definition of a "trans woman" personally?

Thanks @T0tallyFuckedUpFamily and @TheProdigalKittensReturn, both great ideas.

Gift vouchers make for a good raffle prize too - pretty sure any small charity or local school could make use of them. As TotallyFucked points out, not spending them will actually benefit M&S and JL.

You could always write an email/letter to both companies telling them that you have donated your received Xmas gift vouchers to charity because you are no longer willing to shop in stores that care so little for the privacy and dignity of their female customers (and staff). It’s actually one step beyond just not shopping there, as you no longer want their goods even if they are free!

I think I might do the same via post, enclosing my permanent discount card.

I would only have spent around a hundred quid in m&s at Xmas, but it's still a hundred quid that went elsewhere.

As well as my spend though, the class whip round for the teachers usually goes on m&s vouchers - this year it didn't, because I told all those parents what the changing room policy was and we chose not to get m&s vouchers as a result. So that's another hundred quid, plus 26 more families aware (if they weren't already) and unhappy.

Plus my mum's Christmas spending gone, because I told my parents that I'd rather not have anything from there - food or gifts. Another £100?

The high street is struggling. The department store is dying. M&S can't afford to lose all these customers, even if they only spend £100s instead of £1000s. (And I fully believe some posters here spend the thousands, many MNers are minted!)

I can't imagine that they are managing to replace all those lost sales - all those wokescolds on twitter applauding m&s for being inclusive probably aren't buying anything more than a packet of Pervy Pigs. Therefore they have the same costs & overheads but less income. Basic maths.

Hmm, so far we have six pages of people saying that they have boycotted these companies and spent their money elsewhere (and will continue to do so). Plus they've spread the word amongst their friends. And that's just the people who happen to have logged onto Mumsnet today and seen the thread title and bothered to post.

Interspersed with one person repeatedly posting to say that this will have no impact, and also that everyone else is obviously just lying to make an impression (on an anonymous forum).

Gosh, I'm so confused. Who to believe??

@snowblight if there is a larger percentage of women who have encountered trans-identifying males in female spaces on the feminism boards than you believe there to be amongst the general population (although I’m not sure how you are measuring this), has it occurred to you that this could be because women who have experienced it are driven to research and discuss the surrounding issues online, having had it foisted upon them in reality?

It's a real struggle, WonderTree, isn't it?

In previous years I’ve bought enough M&S clothing to qualify for the discounted M&S beauty advent calendar. I didn’t buy one this year. I went to a Sainsburys store to buy Christmas gifts for colleagues (our food is online deliveries all year round) instead of M&S. Whilst I was in store I had a look at the ladies knickers and bought a pack - normally I buy my knickers in M&S. I ordered our turkey crown from a local independent butcher this year and it was really good. It’s not a huge amount of expenditure but, as others have said, now I know there are viable alternatives I’m not sure I’ll go back.

And indeed, living in the kind of woke area in which one does encounter transwomen in toilets, changing rooms etc on a regular basis may not be unrelated to the attitudes of women. Just not in the way some were hoping.

I think the shift to farm shops etc is good in general, honestly. Those are the kinds of businesses that if they're lost you'll really miss them when you need them, so if the foolish policies enacted by large companies end up benefitting them then that's a positive thing all around. Ditto local clothing shops, etc. The high streets are dying, and I'm more interested in preserving the small independent shops than the ones that will maintain a web presence anyway.

I spoke to the staff in my local M&S about this policy and they wasn’t really aware of it. However they did tell me they have regular issues when a certain trans customer uses the ladies loo. Apparently the elderly ladies that are also in the loo always complain to staff about the “man” (their words not mine, monitors) in the toilet.
Are these elderly ladies nasty bigoted MNers, or just upset about having their privacy and dignity taken away by someone who is clearly male?

I have kept up my boycott of M&S and JL and they’ve probably lost in the region of £1000-£1200 from our household so far, given how much we spend this time of year on Christmas food (which I have always had from M&S), plus our regular clothing spending and the twice-weekly cafe visits. It would take something quite radical for them to win back my custom at this point. PP up thread who mentioned the age-old marketing advice about it being many times cheaper to retain existing customers than it is to attract new ones is spot on.

Although I think that the boycotts will undoubtedly be having an impact on these businesses, and they are absolutely worthwhile, I think it’s unrealistic to attribute the poor Christmas sales to this issue. There are so many, far bigger, factors at play. Brexit for a start, and the general election being held in December. Black Friday, which has completely changed consumer behaviour in the run up to Christmas and has massively affected profits. Strained family finances due to stagnating wages over the last 12 years. Increased environmental awareness and motivation to reduce impact (I bought more second hand toys this year and encouraged my parents to do the same for DC - e.g. I convinced DM to buy a second hand toy kitchen for DS rather than the £100+ she had planned to spend on a brand new one). It’s a bit of a perfect storm at the moment. All the more reason for M&S and the like to be taking extra care of its loyal core customer base.

Well, I was brought up to give elderly people an extra level of consideration and courtesy, but the woke youth seem to think that the older someone is the less they matter.

All clothes shops in the UK allow trans women to use the female changing rooms.

The nice independent from which I now buy my underwear doesn't. Which is why M&S can continue to kiss my arse.

Snowblight you're needed on the blood donation thread - as of yet there's no jeering of women who want to keep a distinction between sex and gender.
That'd be a good topic for you eh?

We boycott M&S, Ocado and John Lewis. I miss John Lewis the most, I used to be a regular customer for haberdashery, white goods, computer stuff and kitchen equipment.

Yes. I did no Christmas shopping there either, I normally spend a lot in both Marks and JL.

I normally spend about £800 over Christmas with M & S but didn't spend anything with them this year. I also had a chat with my mum about my reasons for boycotting, she does all of her food shopping there. I don't know if I've affected that, I'll ask her next time I see her but she was pretty appalled at their stance.

A brief word, not a derail I promise...since avoiding Ocado and going more plastic free I have been buying from local businesses and I get a lot more from sopping this way. I'm building relationships with locals, just like the old days when you went to the butcher, baker etc.

If the big retailers don't miss my money then good for them, I'm sure they will be making up the shortfall from the woke folk. Those Percy pigs must be flying off the shelves (pigs...flying...see what I did there?)

I couldn’t care less about the changing rooms. The clothes are just crap. I want to dress like the clothes at Toast but they’re out of my budget.

I’ve also been boycotting and have mentioned to my dm who spends quite a bit there esp at Christmas. A friend who buys an easy tea there once a week is also boycotting.
We are talking relatively small sums of money being lost here but the more people who boycott, and tell their friends and family the wider the ripples spread and the more money they lose. It all adds up

Before anyone starts bleating about horrid feminists running M&S into the ground, let’s remember that this is a self-inflicted wound by M&S’ management. It is perfectly possible to cater for everyone’s needs without disenfranchising, endangering and pissing off one of your key customer demographics.