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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Scottish GRA draft legislation

89 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/12/2019 22:58

According to Shirley Anne Somerville (MSP) on twitter twitter.com/WG_Scotland/status/1206322648206233600?s=19 the draft GRA bill will be out next week.

Women and Girls in Scotland have done some tweeting about the form the consultation is likely to take and they are hoping to release some guidance next year.

Definitely one to keep an eye on, and submit responses too. Even though this is Scottish legislation you can be sure that Westminster will be watching closely.

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Ineedacupofteadesperately · 17/12/2019 16:34

The Scottish Government is of the view that there is lack of evidence that including trans women in women-only services and spaces has negative impacts.

Um, Karen White? I mean there are lots more, but how can they write this? Karen White alone means this flatly isn't true.

CharlieParley · 17/12/2019 16:48

If you have any knowledge at all as to how governments are lobbied on self-id, Purcell's words epitomize the issue of unintended consequences of this policy.

“The law that was enacted in 2015 did not envisage this situation, and it puts the Prison Service and the courts in a difficult position because, obviously, if somebody is self-declaring that they have to be recognised, then they have to be dealt with on that basis, even though physically, they have not have made the [physical] transformation.

I don’t think the legislation envisaged the ability of transgender people to be able to self-declare; and it didn’t foresee the problems it would cause if a transgender, self-declared person was held in a mixed prison,” he said.

Let that sink in: the self-id law did not envisage a male actually self-identifying self-identifying and thus gain access to female only facilities.

How is this possible?

We know from the published literature from the last consultation as well as FOIs that what trans rights lobbyists claim is that self-id will help people who identify as trans who are very vulnerable and very much discriminated against.

This is of course a reference to the transsexuals for whom the original GRA was written. We know - for instance from the training the Glasgow Life employees received - that they are being told that no one pre-op who is after all so vulnerable and distressed because they identify as trans would ever strip naked in front of either sex as they feel so uncomfortable with their bodies etc. (Which we know does not actually apply to the majority of those who push for self-id.)

So the poor Irish prison service now has to deal with the fallout from the government being sold a pup. And Irish lawmakers didn't just fall for the narrative, they also didn't think to dig a little deeper into the population seeking to self-identify or think critically about the needs and rights of women, so now services and organisations have to deal with the true face of self-id - the obvious male, completely unadulterated, equipped with a fully functional male reproductive system, who may or may not express his feminine side by wearing dresses etc.

It took four years for this to come to the fore, so the Scottish Government saying there's no evidence* about laws being abused that were enacted less than five years ago is not just disingenuous, it is downright dishonest if that statement isn't accompanied by a disclaimer taking this vital fact into account.

*There is evidence though from all countries and territories that have enacted self-id laws and/or adopted self-id policies in practice.

From Denmark, Norway, US states with self-id, Canada, Ireland, Spain, Scotland, Mexico...

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2019 17:26

Has anyone linked to this?

www.heraldscotland.com/news/18106522.minister-admits-trans-rights-reforms-may-gone-far-consultation-launched-gender/
Minister admits some trans rights reforms may have gone too far, as consultation launched on gender

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2019 18:04

In case it's behind a paywall for other people too..

archive.li/jR8bj

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theunknownknown · 17/12/2019 19:37

can women outside of Scotland submit a response?

OhHolyJesus · 17/12/2019 19:54

I think so theunknown the LGB Alliance is forming a response as I'm sure other women's groups will do so too. We should all share to have many, many responses sent in.

Posting as a reminder, this is from Feb 2018, strange to read this now in a way as it's almost a year ago...

womansplaceuk.org/response-to-scottish-review-of-the-gra/

theunknownknown · 17/12/2019 22:45

thank you Holy
I'll keep an eye on this thread and submit a response nearer the deadline

stumbledin · 17/12/2019 23:48

Someone has posted on facebook the link to the online consultation process and pointed out that the form includes a section that asks if you are from Scotland / the rest of the uk / the rest of the world (which is very global of them). consult.gov.scot/family-law/gender-recognition-reform-scotland-bill/

I suspect response from those outside the UK will be disregarded unless it is a "known" group or probably a trans activist group from some other country with "evidence" that trans rights do not erase women's rights.

The real problem is that so many women service providers in Scotland dont seem to think that trans rights are in any way a problem for them. These groups opinions will far outweigh those from groups outside of Scotland

PlayYouLikeAShark · 17/12/2019 23:53

The previous consultation was open, as is this one. It's important that anyone who wants to, can submit a response, and in particular, those in countries that already have gender self ID & have felt the impact already. For anyone reading this thread, it's really, really important that women respond, to help build the evidence base that underpins the ongoing need for female only provision/spaces/services, highlighting how mix sex provision impacts women's ability to participate fully in public life. This isn't just restricted to Scotland, so everyone who has an interest in this, and wants to speak up - this is the opportunity to do so.

NoCisAllWoman · 18/12/2019 00:17

We've been told by the Guardian article that "cis women's rights will not be diminished." Why thank you so very much Angry. Guess we should all just calm down and be nice.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 06:54

Another thread about Times article on the Scottish consultation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3771664--No-evidence-that-men-are-using-trans-identity-for-sexual-violence

ElluesPichulobu · 18/12/2019 07:22

we need women from countries where self- ID is already law completing the consultation to say that yes there are already problems. women who are self- excluding from formerly single-sex services and opportunities, or who are avoiding health care screenings for example, due to them being no longer safe. statistics on these women are not collected so there will be no evidence of these problems except the testimony of the individual.

hoorayforharoldlloyd · 18/12/2019 07:37

How will people needing intimate care be able to specify that they want to be cared for by someone of the same sex?

A friend of mine currently uses personal care. She has had a transwoman once and was aware she was booking a transwoman. She discussed this issue with the carer, who felt that it was wrong that the agency would inform possible bookers that she was trans. In which case, you either have vulnerable women having clearly natal men turning up on their doorstep or being lied to.

To give you an idea of the vulnerability, my friend uses personal care for toileting and has the care worker live in her house for 2 weeks at a time. She can't get into her wheelchair or leave the house without support. Where is her dignity, choice, safety? Where is her validation?

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 08:08

There is no need for agencies to specifically point to any member of staff as trans.
Every woman who uses their service should be asked as part of their initial registration form whether they are comfortable if their intimate care was handled by a staff who is of the opposite sex or trans. (It is important to highlight opposite sex) If a woman ticks No, then the responsibility is on the agency to ensure she is never assigned a trans person for her intimate care.
And this requirement can always be modified at any point; so if a woman initially thinks she is ok with it but a few months down the line decides she is not, or vice versa, she should be able to phone up management and get it changed. No one needs to know nor care if there are any trans individuals. Organisations just don't want to put in the effort to ensure women feel comfortable and safe when using their services.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/12/2019 09:18

Organisations just don't want to put in the effort to ensure women feel comfortable and safe when using their services.

And they've been told through their expensive "diversity training" that they are not allowed to...

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hoorayforharoldlloyd · 18/12/2019 09:25

@NonnyMouse1337 sounds reasonable if it would be followed - no-one made uncomfortable or having personal information shared.

But i don't see it being followed. There seems to be a belief that single sex requirements are hugely offensive to transwomen rather than a reasonable adjustment. Plus my own personal assumption that some people want to use women for validation.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 18/12/2019 09:29

If its the NHS, the problem is that although patients may clearly be able to distinguish the sex of their carer, the NHS refuses to.

It's a perfectly sensible solution, Nonny, but these aren't sensible times.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 18/12/2019 09:35

"cis women's rights will not be diminished."

How lovely for the Laurie Pennys of this world, but what about women? It is women's rights I'm worried about, not those of the miniscule number of 'cis women'.

I've never even met a 'cis woman' in real life.

NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 09:50

Yes, hoorayforharoldlloyd and ScrimshawTheSecond, there are lots of ways to reasonably handle single sex provision. It is a deliberate move on the part of politicians and organisations to claim that this is a 'tough' or 'sensitive' area to navigate.

There needs to be more public awareness about it. Public bodies need to be exposed and held accountable and asked uncomfortable questions about their actions.

littlbrowndog · 18/12/2019 10:09

This is a great interview with Joan mcalpine

She really really nails it

womansplaceuk.org/2019/12/17/sex-based-discrimination-an-interview-with-scottish-parliamentarian-joan-mcalpine/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/12/2019 10:18

This is a great interview with Joan mcalpine

Wow - it really is! Great to see a relatively high profile politician who really really gets it

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NonnyMouse1337 · 18/12/2019 10:39

That is a great interview with Joan McAlpine.

rodgmum · 18/12/2019 11:17

stumbledin please don’t discourage anyone from replying to the consultation! The first consultation was also worldwide and many responses were from outside Scotland- the Scottish Government still refers to the full figures and not just the Scottish responses.

I’d strongly encourage anyone with an interest to respond, especially anyone with experiences of the issue where they live, whether it be in schools or workplaces etc. The more responses, the better. It might end up being a waste of time, but surely it’s worth a try.

jellyfrizz · 18/12/2019 11:35

Oh and this is not “trans equality”. This is the desires of male transitioners being put above the needs of women.

^^This. Trans people need to be accepted as trans people and protected as trans people, not this fudge pretending they are the opposite sex. This does not help trans people, gender non conforming people or anyone else negatively affected by gender stereotypes (i.e. pretty much everyone).

littlbrowndog · 18/12/2019 12:29

From Raquel Rosario Sanchez interview with Joan

Interviewed @JoanMcAlpine for @ElCaribeRD (translation @WomansPlaceUK): "Truth is important. I feel very strongly that policy-making should be transparent, and the power structures that have influenced gender identity policies are opaque and unhealthy."