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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden 2011 - clarification by lead researcher Dr. Cecilia Dhejne 2015

29 replies

MoleSmokes · 06/12/2019 06:11

There was a reference to this study in a current thread, which reminded me to post this.

The main researcher in the 2011 Swedish study "Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden by Dr. Cecilia Dhejne, et al 2011" has since clarified in 2015 that it does not prove what it seems to say that it proves.

This is what the study says (selected extracts only):

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Results

The overall mortality for sex-reassigned persons was higher during follow-up (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 1.8–4.3) than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide (aHR 19.1; 95% CI 5.8–62.9). Sex-reassigned persons also had an increased risk for suicide attempts (aHR 4.9; 95% CI 2.9–8.5) and psychiatric inpatient care (aHR 2.8; 95% CI 2.0–3.9). Comparisons with controls matched on reassigned sex yielded similar results. Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls.

Crime rate

Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

Gender differences

Comparisons of female-to-males and male-to-females, although hampered by low statistical power and associated wide confidence intervals, suggested mostly similar risks for adverse outcomes (Tables S1 and S2). However, violence against self (suicidal behaviour) and others ([violent] crime) constituted important exceptions. First, male-to-females had significantly increased risks for suicide attempts compared to both female (aHR 9.3; 95% CI 4.4–19.9) and male (aHR 10.4; 95% CI 4.9–22.1) controls. By contrast, female-to-males had significantly increased risk of suicide attempts only compared to male controls (aHR 6.8; 95% CI 2.1–21.6) but not compared to female controls (aHR 1.9; 95% CI 0.7–4.8). This suggests that male-to-females are at higher risk for suicide attempts after sex reassignment, whereas female-to-males maintain a female pattern of suicide attempts after sex reassignment (Tables S1 and S2).

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.

Conclusion

This study found substantially higher rates of overall mortality, death from cardiovascular disease and suicide, suicide attempts, and psychiatric hospitalisations in sex-reassigned transsexual individuals compared to a healthy control population. This highlights that post surgical transsexuals are a risk group that need long-term psychiatric and somatic follow-up. Even though surgery and hormonal therapy alleviates gender dysphoria, it is apparently not sufficient to remedy the high rates of morbidity and mortality found among transsexual persons. Improved care for the transsexual group after the sex reassignment should therefore be considered.

-----

Cristan Williams interview with Dr. Cecilia Dhejne, 2015

I found parts of Dhejne's clarification difficult to grasp as it seems to contradict the published paper. However, it would appear that the paper was not written up with sufficient care to differentiate throughout between the two cohorts (1973 - 1988 and 1989 - 2003) so it is easily open to misinterpretation. Dhejne does not acknowledge this but it is obvious from the detailed questioning needed to winkle out the facts. Maybe being written in English rather than Swedish was a factor?

www.transadvocate.com/fact-check-study-shows-transition-makes-trans-people-suicidal_n_15483.htm

That is a long article - this is Dhejne's summary at the end (my bolding):

"The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality.

As to the criminality metric itself, we were measuring and comparing the total number of convictions, not conviction type. We were not saying that cisgender males are convicted of crimes associated with marginalization and poverty. We didn’t control for that and we were certainly not saying that we found that trans women were a rape risk. What we were saying was that for the 1973 to 1988 cohort group and the cisgender male group, both experienced similar rates of convictions. As I said, this pattern is not observed in the 1989 to 2003 cohort group.

The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces. What the data tells us is that things are getting measurably better and the issues we found affecting the 1973 to 1988 cohort group likely reflects a time when trans health and psychological care was less effective and social stigma was far worse. "

----

This study is referenced repeatedly in articles about post-SRS criminality and suicide rates. Dhejne is aware that it is routinely misinterpreted but has not, unfortunately, taken the opportunity afforded on PLOS to add a comment to clarify how the paper should be understood.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

I am no good at all when it comes to statistics so I am hoping that someone who is good at that sort of thing happens along this way!

If you put the original paper alongside the detail of Dhejne's clarification in the Cristan Willaims article and also stick to the 1989 to 2003 cohort - what does the study actually show? (Not a rhetorical question!)

Cristan's conclusion relates only to what it does not show:

"To be clear:

No, the study does not show that medical transition results in suicide or suicidal ideation. The study explicitly states that such is not the case and those using this study to make that claim are using fallacious logic.

No, the study does not prove that trans women are rapists or likely to be rapists. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a euphemism for rape.

No, the study does not prove that trans women exhibit male socialization. The “male pattern of criminality” found in the 1973 to 1988 cohort group was not a claim that trans women were convicted of the same types of crime as cis men."

OP posts:
midcenturylegs · 07/12/2019 18:37

Sorry for derailing this thread btw!

MoleSmokes · 10/12/2019 22:58

Many thanks to everyone who has helped to unravel this and those who have also provided extra information.

The input from people who know how to analyse the data is really helpful and is very much the sort of help I was looking for.

I am aware that Cristan has "an agenda" but I do not see that as a valid reason to ignore articles like this, particularly when it includes a detailed, verbatim interview with the lead researcher of such a frequently referenced study. Apologies in advance, Datun if I have misinterpreted the meaning behind the first line of your comment.

I read a lot of writing by trans activists where it relates to research, perhaps as much as gender critical content. It helps me to understand where some of their arguments come from and often where their weaknesses lie. Similarly, James Cantor, while highly contentious on paedophilia, is good at picking apart "trans stats" so I am not going to ignore him on that subject.

I also very much agree that it would be very useful to have data on people identifying as transgender rather than just post-SRS transsexuals.

There might be only a small window left for this in the UK, due to Government Dept's instituting de facto Self-ID in the absence of legislation authorising it.

Crime stats are only messed up to a limited extent at the moment but this will be a very significant issue if Self-ID becomes a simple "admin procedure".

A legal-sex female by virtue of a GRC is recorded (correctly under the GRA2004) as a "female" offender not as transgender, which distorts female crime stats and also prevents analysis of "trans crimes". At the moment, the MOJ is still using a "transgender" field in at least some data collection, which is what has enabled prisons to report numbers of transgender inmates in response to FOI requests.

Meanwhile, the ONS records "transgender" as a "victim category", giving the impression in official statistics that transgender people are only ever the victims of crime and never the perpetrators.

The MOJ and NHS have been changing the way they collect and record data and how they deal with trans people for years now, obfuscating and deliberately misleading people:

"Sex, Gender and the NHS Part 1: The “Single-Sex Hospital Wards” that have always been a lie"
archive.md/14ivs

"Sex, Gender & the NHS Part 2: Your Medical Record and your Ladybrain"
archive.ph/dpkWt

The NHS continues on an increasingly insane path, eg. asking for "gender" rather than "sex" when recording blood donors. None of this will help transgender people as there will be no data to inform the DoH, NHS or Health Observatories of transgender health care needs. On an individual level, "gender based" medical intervention risks avoidably harming both transgender sexes.

Where are the Patient Safety Risk Assessments for these changes to medical records?

In the kennel of the dog that ate the Welsh Assembly Equality Impact Assessment?

If the Tories do not get in again this week I expect that there will mass deletion of material on Government web sites, as there was in May and June 2010 immediately after the Tories got in.

Some statutory guidance, where it referred to legislation, was archived - and there is still stuff only accessible in official archives with a warning on it, usually dated 6 June 2010, saying that it has been archived because it will be "reviewed", ie. after the election on Thurs May 6th 2010 the Civil Service cleared the digital decks.

I have a personal interest in a completely different area of Govt Legislation where the Statutory Guidance has changed very significantly and controversially recently (at the request of the police, to improve surveillance as it happens). There is no authority for this outside of our "unelected civil servants" (ahem!) in Whitehall, who are supposed to be basing this particular Statutory Guidance on an EU Directive from 2007, ie. as approved by our elected representatives.

The last time that Statutory Guidance accurately reflected the relevant EU Directive is in a document buried in the Govt archive on 6 June 2010 with a warning, "Content on this site is under review following the formation of a new government." aka "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.” It has never been "reviewed" by any Government.

I am including that unrelated example just to illustrate the drift that can occur "under the RADAR" if we do not start to constantly pester our elected representatives to ask questions in Parliaments and Assemblies - plus the need to be hyper-vigilant after the election, especially if the Tories do not get in. Nothing to do with Party Politics and everything to do with the way Governments of all stripes and the Civil Service operate.

OP posts:
haXXor · 10/12/2019 23:35

Going.to suggest that we vote/spoil ballots bright and early on Thursday and spend the evening backing up the Govt websites on archive.is and the wayback machine. No Govt can be trusted not to take advantage of the impermanence of their websites to erase inconvenient material.

Orwell lacked ambition when he dreamed up memory holes, websites are so easily altered to gaslight us.

FloraFox · 10/12/2019 23:46

One of the authors Celia Dhejne Helmy was interviewed by a TRA. Following that she did an AMA on Reddit:

www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/

In her own words, not filtered by the TRA interviewer, she says:

For combined transgender females and males and for the whole period 1973-2003 we saw an increased risk of being dead ( in suicide and cardio vascular diseases) and of being hospitalized for any psychiatric morbidity and for suicide attempts. We saw a positive time trend regarding mortality, suicide attempts and any crime and violent crime. For the last period (1989-2003) the transgender group did not have any elevated risk of being dead or being hospitalized for suicide attempts or committing any crime or violent crime. They had the same risk as the controls. However the elevated risk for being hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity still remained. The elevated risk in the transgender group could be caused of many things which we were unable to control for.

Increased trend in crime and violent crime before 1989 and afterwards the same risk as the controls. The control groups were the birth sex group.

Later in the AMA the TRA asks her what “male pattern of criminality” means. In her response she says:

The number of transwomen who had comited crime durin gthis period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

The TRA did not ask a follow up question, I suspect realising it was time to stop digging.

As far as I can tell, the senior authors of the paper have not made any further comment on the results or their interpretation.

At the very least, the study shows that further study is warranted. We're often told that "genuine trans" TIMs are no threat to women. If there was a definition of "genuine trans" it is likely to be the participants in this study who have had treatment for dysphoria and undergone legal transition with genital surgery. We are expected to assume "genuine trans" are no threat to women but data can be collected on the criminality rates and patterns of TIMs and I think women are entitled to have that evidence assessed publicly.

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