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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Letter from FOVAS *DAMNING* for Stonewall

70 replies

Mbwashenzi · 02/07/2019 22:06

FOVAS (Female-Only Violence and Abuse Survivors) have just published a desperately upsetting account of the impact of sex self ID on women-only services. Worse: there is clear evidence that Stonewall have treated data provided to them by these services in a deeply unethical way.
Please read and share with everyone you can think of.

fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

(how do you make a link work doing this on your phone??)

OP posts:
MoleSmokes · 03/07/2019 12:19

@HepzibahGreen The DBS certificate would still show the criminal record, just not the previous names and original sex. So "Letitia" would have a DBS showing the same convictions as "Leonard".

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 03/07/2019 12:38

The DBS certificate would still show the criminal record, just not the previous names and original sex

But what if Letitia has been living at her address for 5 years, on electoral roll etc and chooses not to declare previous names. Would DBS actually check back beyond 5 years to see.if this person existed before then?

butteryellow · 03/07/2019 12:49

Anybody who knows about refuges knows that sometimes you get women turning up, if they are lucky, with a bin bag full of stuff and the bin bag full of stuff is sometimes just the children’s toys, because they have picked out what is the most important to them.

Fuck. I was doing so well, angry at reading, then I got to this bit and involuntarily sobbed. This is the truth of refuges.

HepzibahGreen · 03/07/2019 13:31

HepzibahGreen The DBS certificate would still show the criminal record, just not the previous names and original sex. So "Letitia" would have a DBS showing the same convictions as "Leonard".

I'm not the brightest, but that's confused me mole! Wouldn't "Leonard" be the previous name? Sorry if derailing.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 13:49

But what if Letitia has been living at her address for 5 years, on electoral roll etc and chooses not to declare previous names. Would DBS actually check back beyond 5 years to see.if this person existed before then?

DBS has to first confirm identity (from birth) & then search for convictions / serious intelligence (if enhanced)

There is a direct process so that the person in an organisation who checks id is not alerted to a 'change of gender'
The applicant contacts DBS directly & provides all information there.

Given the nature of organisations which are required to carry out DBS & the type of work (Safeguarding children & vulnerable adults) it makes no sense to me that they are not entitled to have relevent risk information about applicants eg their sex & also able to manage such information confidentially.

It creates a loophole & whilst there are theoretical protections in place, it will be tested by those determined to.

The bottom line is that with any Safeguarding work, the priority should be the at risk children & vulnerable adults who are requiring a service. When protecting/validating the 'identity' of a potential employee is the driver for changes in Safeguarding frameworks, something has gone very wrong.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 13:58

I'm not the brightest, but that's confused me mole! Wouldn't "Leonard" be the previous name? Sorry if derailing.

THe current name ( Letitia) would be at the top of the paperwork

The convictions listed would not indicate were committed by anyone else but 'her'
1/3/1980 Shoplifting goods value £10 fine £15

The previous name would not appear when there has been a 'gender change', though with other job applicants, all previous names are listed & therefore known to the employer.

MoleSmokes · 03/07/2019 14:37

Personally, I'd worry about the reliability of the DBS system where a name change is almost certainly involved but that is what DV refuges rely on, ie. if they do any checks at all.

I wonder if there has ever been an audit?

The whole system is back to front, trying to introduce safeguarding for the more vulnerable by trying to patch holes in a system designed to protect the less vulnerable.

The safest option would be:

  1. look at tightening up the EA and GRA to ensure ease of excluding transwomen entirely.

  2. then and only then consider a proven, reliable system for inclusion. Which would mean looking at the integrity of the DBS system.

HepzibahGreen · 03/07/2019 14:46

Thank you Rowan Thats helped. I agree that in certain jobs it is best for safeguarding for the employer to know the sex of the applicant.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2019 15:45

I agree that in certain jobs it is best for safeguarding for the employer to know the sex of the applicant.

When working with children & vulnerable women, its essential.
Sex is a significant risk factor.
To hide sex of someone employed & therefore with power is a failure in the Duty of Care.

A potential employee who sought to hide a significant risk factor should also be regarded as representing potential risk.

MoleSmokes · 03/07/2019 16:29

@Mbwashenzi has the FOVAS "Response to Stonewall" been sent to Maria Miller MP, Jess Phillips MP and Baroness Burt of Solihull?

They, jointly with Ruth Hunt CEO Stonewall, seem to have received and in the Foreword strongly endorse the Stonewall & NFPSYNERGY Report "Supporting trans women in domestic and sexual violence services: Interviews with professionals in the sector"

(Why do people never date important documents like this?! - I mean the Stonewall Report.)

--------

THE "CASE-BY-CASE" CLARIFICATION WAS OBTAINED BY "WOMEN AND GIRLS IN SCOTLAND"

twitter.com/WG_Scotland/status/1133870458686906368

"The GEO (told us) that preclusion of trans people on a ‘case by case basis’ refers to the specific set of circumstances under which they are precluded...not to individuals". Blanket policies regarding female-only provision are lawful, so long as they are objectively justified."

GEO = UK Government Equality Office

Female Only Provision: A Women and Girls in Scotland Equality Report
secureservercdn.net/160.153.137.99/hjn.a49.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/FEMALE-ONLY-PROVISION-REPORT-1.pdf

PAGE 37

The need to strengthen protections for women and girls

"In our view it is unacceptable that the UK and Scottish Governments, as well as the EHRC, are unclear on how holding a GRC impacts considerations in regard to applying the single sex exceptions in the EA. We also think it is unacceptable that the current EA and GRA are apparently incompatible, as together they are interpreted by major providers to nullify the single sex exceptions (As explained in Appendix D). Furthermore, the equality protections for women and girls in the EA recognise that women and girls have sex based rights to privacy, dignity, safety, and to recover from abuse and trauma, and to be able to participate in society, and to equality. As such, we believe that the optional nature of the single sex exceptions, meant to uphold these rights, combined with the fact that the EA is open to confusion, nullification and misrepresentation, means that the EA does not adequately protect women and girls."

"As part of its review regarding the need for female-only provision in Scotland, the Scottish Government should identify the ways in which the EA can be strengthened and clarified to ensure that female-only provision is available to uphold the needs and rights of women and girls, and that there is recourse in regard to discrimination where these are not upheld. Our protections should not simply be an option but a requirement; we must be able to take action in regard to discrimination whenever the lack of female-only provision functions to discriminate against us."

"While the EA is reserved legislation, as outlined above the Scottish Government is willing to engage with the UK Government in regard to the EA for reasons of protecting women and girls. As such, we ask that the Scottish Government engages with the UK Government to ensure the EA adequately protects women and girls in the ways we have outlined, and we also ask the Scottish Government to identify any action it can take in respect to devolved powers in order to achieve the same."

Guidance and advice regarding the Equality Act 2010

"In the meantime, we ask that the government produces specific guidance regarding the EA single sex exceptions, as well as a point of contact in an advisory capacity, to help people in Scotland be able to understand the EA as it stands, and how to use the EA to uphold protections therein. Ideally there would be a service similar to the EASS, only it would be providing advice on applying the EA (it is important to note that the EHRC only provides some general forms of guidance, and is not an advice service). We would note that this would be of benefit to all protected groups in the EA, and that the lack of any EA advisory service is clearly a barrier to full use of the EA throughout the UK."

PAGE 44

APPENDIX B

The impact on women’s rights of basing access to a GRC on self-identification

". . . Furthermore, our work has uncovered that even though the single sex exceptions also apply to trans people with GRCs, applying these to people with GRCs in practice is very difficult, as joint protections under the EA and the GRA mean that it is not possible to ascertain if a person holds a GRC. And even if a trans person discloses their status to an employer or other organisation, this information cannot be shared (See Appendix D for our NHS Case Study which demonstrates this).

PAGE 45

APPENDIX C

Equality Act 2010: common misunderstanding and current practice

" . . . Many also claim that blanket policies that preclude trans people from accessing forms of single sex provision are legally prohibited, and again, this is incorrect. In correspondence with our group on this point, the GEO used an example in the explanatory notes to the EA of a group counselling session for female victims of sexual assault that precludes transwomen “because the service provider judged that inclusion would mean the women for whom the service was intended would not attend”. The GEO highlighted that preclusion of trans people on a ‘case by case basis’ refers to the specific set of circumstances under which they are precluded, i.e. ‘case by case basis’ refers to circumstances, not individuals, and this is how services such as group counselling sessions for female victims of sexual assault can lawfully be provided for natal females only.

The kinds of misrepresentations and incoherent positions regarding the EA that we have outlined here are contributing not only to a great deal of confusion around the EA, but also to a climate where those who would invoke those protections are particularly fearful of doing so, as they will be attacked as being transphobic and/or as ‘rolling back trans rights’, and by organisations, not just individuals."

Letter from FOVAS *DAMNING* for Stonewall
SonicVersusGynaephobia · 03/07/2019 17:34

Have any of the MPs this has been shared with commented on it yet?

Stella Creasey tweeted something gushing about Ruth Hunt a few days ago, (iirc), has someone posted this under it? (She's blocked me, or I would)

MrsJamin · 03/07/2019 19:38

This is what Jess Phillips was up to today, pouting at Stonewall. I'm thinking this didn't follow a quizzing to them about how much they listen to vulnerable women. Hmm

HandsOffMyRights · 05/07/2019 11:05

MrsJamin, Jess is my friend's MP.

My friend asked jess to attend meetings with Fairplay and WPUK in Westminster.

Jess replied to say she couldn't make it as she would be with Amnesty Angry that day (but would make sure women and girls are safe, following my friend's concerns re self ID and the GRA).

Which is it Jess? Keeping females safe or cosying up to Stonewall?

AlessandraAsteriti · 05/07/2019 11:56

The media silence is deafening. What will it take for people to start paying attention to this?

AlessandraAsteriti · 05/07/2019 12:12

I emailed Amelia Gentleman at the Guardian a link to the letter, but I doubt she will reply, let alone do anything about this. When I emailed her a couple of years ago on transgender policy at the Garrick Club, she answered right away, suggested a phone conversation and was very keen to engage. Pitiful

AlessandraAsteriti · 05/07/2019 12:59

Update: I have received an email from Guardian they say they are looking at writing about the issue. I have also initiated complaint procedure with Stonewall, and hopefully eventually with Charity Commission, about report on women refuges. They are not getting away with this if I can help it.

Aspley · 05/07/2019 13:07

Ha. I won't hold my breath on anything coming out of the Guardian. they will probably get Owen Jones to write something.
Good for you for pushing it though.

fascinated · 05/07/2019 13:17

Great work, AA.

AlessandraAsteriti · 05/07/2019 13:27

There are some good women at the Guardian (Orr, Freedman) but what is needed is some good old investigative journalism, with data, interviews etc.And some clarity of language. How many people really would support self ID if they clearly understood it meant males undressing in front of little girls?

aliasundercover · 05/07/2019 13:57

Orr has long since been squeezed out, along with Bindell and most other actual feminists. They needed to make room for complaints about how hard life is for public school Oxbridge educated women compared to public school Oxbridge educated men.

And investigative journalism at the Guardian? Not since Rusbridger left - I never thought I’d miss him.

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