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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

People with vaginas

50 replies

Thesepreciousthings · 19/03/2019 10:33

Very confusing article from Everyday Feminism. Left over on my rarely visited Facebook feed from my flirtation with liberal feminism during my uni days this ‘feminist’ blog never fails to boggle my mind with it’s inclusion of men in what could be helpful discussions about female sexuality.

Referring to ‘people with vaginas’ and repeated use of ‘ciswomen’ to describe ahem, actual women I am left totally bewildered as to why a blog focusing on women’s issues somehow manages to alienate women. Is this what the third wave has come to?

OP posts:
OrchidInTheSun · 19/03/2019 15:25

It's ostensibly to ensure that trans men are included but that isn't what it's about. It's about expanding the term women and girls to include people who were born male.

That's why the language doesn't need changing for men. Trans men aren't hopping up and down at exclusionary language when the nhs refers to prostrate problems being a male issue.

CaptainMarvelBunting · 19/03/2019 15:46

Exactly. They will justify it to be inclusive of the human shields transmen. But we all know it's so that 'woman' no longer belongs to us and XY people may use it at will.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 19/03/2019 16:16

The plan is that woman is just something you identify as. No characteristics, nothing.

The 52% of the population who all have a particular biology in common are a huge, dirty secret with no name.

Utter nutjobbery. It's insane. It's also unbelievably misogynist, but isn't everything these days? I identify as a small blue table btw.

Knicknackpaddyflak · 19/03/2019 16:17

It only works if women play along. Which is why it's important to just keep using the words women, girls, female, according to their original meanings and refusing to get confused.

'I don't believe in genderism' is a right enshrined in the EA and in the HRA.

R0wantrees · 19/03/2019 17:01

I've always said that the way to solve the loo problem is to put up signs: Penis and No Penis. Simple.

Women are not defined by absence of penis.
Males without penis are not women.

Women=adult human female.

Humans can't change sex

SpeakUpXXWomen · 19/03/2019 17:06

It only works if women play along. Which is why it's important to just keep using the words women, girls, female, according to their original meanings and refusing to get confused.

This completely and please really do write and complain about the language used, especially by health professionals who do know better. The only reason this fuckwittery is being indulged is because of entitled whining complaints so beat the number of complaints and statement made, job done, no more illiterate stupidity. We must not stand for the removal of our language, block it at every opportunity.

Melroses · 19/03/2019 17:07

You just need a Special Loo with a very big mirror in it Wink

ColeHawlins · 19/03/2019 17:32

really do write and complain about the language used, especially by health professionals who do know better. The only reason this fuckwittery is being indulged is because of entitled whining complaints so beat the number of complaints and statement made, job done, no more illiterate stupidity.

Completely agree. We need to whine louder than them. There are many more of us, so it should be achievable.

Datun · 19/03/2019 17:39

The nhs website states The prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.. Men's health seems under no pressure to stop mentioning sex.

The fact that this doesn't say and women with prostates, tells you absolutely everything you need to know.

It's being driven by men who want to erase the difference between them and us.

They're not jumping up and down saying oi hang on a minute, what about the women with prostates? Because drawing attention to their male biology is the opposite of what they want to do.

They are to be women with penises and we are to be women with vaginas.

Any chance I get, I will be telling healthcare professionals to refer to me as a woman. And on the vanishingly rare occasions when they are dealing with a woman who wants to be a man, they can change their language for her.

Not me.

Datun · 19/03/2019 17:48

I'm just about to contradict myself now. Because obviously saying women with penises is still drawing attention to their biology.

I guess it's that a prostate sounds more biological, more medical somehow.

They never seem to say I'm a woman with a prostate. Ever.

Perhaps because it sounds even more ridiculous than saying I'm a woman with a penis.

I've confused myself now. Easily done with #translogic.

BickerinBrattle · 19/03/2019 17:55

They say “woman with penis” to draw attention to the penis.

It’s a violation, via language. The two nouns together connote intercourse, and we all know what the word is for intercourse without consent. Even getting a woman to say the words “woman with a penis” is providing someone a thrill.

So much of this movement is founded on slick language tricks. Everyone on the planet knows what a woman is, and what she is not.

This a movement that’s ALL about forcing others to submit.

Ereshkigal · 19/03/2019 18:12

The only reason this fuckwittery is being indulged is because of entitled whining complaints so beat the number of complaints and statement made, job done, no more illiterate stupidity. We must not stand for the removal of our language, block it at every opportunity.

This, exactly. They cause trouble. They are loud and demanding and bullying. It's less trouble, currently to fuck over women and girls than it is to disregard transactivists. We need to make sure that we don't get sidelined.

Ereshkigal · 19/03/2019 18:13

And YY to this

It’s a violation, via language. The two nouns together connote intercourse, and we all know what the word is for intercourse without consent. Even getting a woman to say the words “woman with a penis” is providing someone a thrill.

We need to bear this in mind, always.

heresyisthenewblack · 20/03/2019 00:33

Sorry, I know the thread has moved on, but wanted to say to thanks to MsTiggywinkletoyou:

Your point about language to mirror the patient is excellent. So actually in gender clinics/when talking specifically about trans stuff, doctors might use convoluted terminology, but really shouldn't speak like that to the general public. The lexicon in medicine is important, but can be alienating. Doctors have a history of being very patronizing (especially towards women!), and the use of medical phrases instead of explaining concepts simply has been noted as one way doctors can keep patients at a distance. I think of it a bit like if you speak English, but the doctors only discuss what's going on in Spanish, and then translate a tiny bit of it back to English for you. You're left wondering what's going on, feeling excluded or talked about instead of spoken with. So I think there has been a move to use clearer language when speaking about health. HCPs ought to be encouraged to communicate in the everyday words most people will understand, or mirror back specific words to the patient (as long as everyone has ensured they're on the same page about what those words mean, because even a word like "sick" could have different meanings, some use it to mean generally feeling unwell, but for others it's vomiting-specific).

Language is so important for healthcare, public health campaigns, websites and information leaflets. It needs to be accessible and easy to understand for the the target audience. Simple, clear, and accurate.

What's happening to language for women's health unfortunately appears to be heading in directly the opposite way. It's getting confusing for everyone. It makes me really worried, actually. I don't understand how they can claim to connect effectively with women as a group if they use language like cervix-haver or menstruator. Honestly. How does that help the average woman? How does that communicate properly to women who don't speak English as their first language? How does that reach a woman who has never used the word menstruation to describe her period, or may have heard the word cervix twice at school but hasn't thought of it since?

We all know what "woman" means. I can't understand why anyone who thinks about female health has gone along with the notion that "woman" is now a taboo word.

I suspect it's very much about the desires of male-born transactivists, as has been pointed out on the thread. What's disappointing to me is that whoever is in charge seems to feel that ridiculous linguistic gymnastics around women's health is fabulously "inclusive," but speaking clearly about men's health remains most important: "well, cervix-haver is good, but when we talk about prostate cancer we need to make sure to address men. Otherwise men might get confused and their health could suffer."

Sexism has rarely been this obvious to me.

Skittlesss · 20/03/2019 06:51

I wonder if the health professionals are told by their employer to watch their “language” and they use these terms so as to avoid upsetting people. If they are in fear of being in bother at work/losing their job then they may be forced into using such terms.

As for the penis/no penis toilets... can’t we just have one loo labelled “XX” and one “XY”? Grin

SpeakUpXXWomen · 20/03/2019 08:01

It's in the guidelines, been going on for some time now.

There is a thread to discuss donor options with the NHS here, it seems that gender is being asked about instead of sex, different forms for each country so check yours. Seems like an ideal opportunity to ask for correct use of language and data gathering.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/guest_posts/3537594-Guest-post-on-Max-and-Keira-s-Law-People-will-still-have-a-choice-whether-or-not-they-want-to-donate

R0wantrees · 20/03/2019 09:15

As for the penis/no penis toilets... can’t we just have one loo labelled “XX” and one “XY”?

Male (single sex space) and Female (single sex space) ?

Skittlesss · 20/03/2019 09:32

Yes, biological toilets.

Lamaha · 21/03/2019 13:01

Women are not defined by absence of penis.Males without penis are not women.

Yes but I don't mind sharing a loo with men who have taken the huge step of cutting it off. I won't call them a woman, but I sympathise with their reluctance to use a men's loo.

Oldermum156 · 21/03/2019 13:08

I have had a lot of transactivists whine to me "but you haven't had a chromosome test, how can you KNOW you have XX chromosomes?! Almost no one has had a DNA test!!"
It's a ludicrous argument, not only do I have completely normal female development, I also have given birth, which I believe is not possible absent normal XX chromosomes. Anyway I did have one of the increasingly popular DNA tests done the other day, 2 X chromosomes, lol

heresyisthenewblack · 21/03/2019 13:16

Oldermum156
Grin
Who could ever have guessed that result?

RussellSprout · 21/03/2019 13:46

I've always understood the 'people with vaginas' 'pregnant people' thing not to be about not upsetting transmen, but about not upsetting transwomen.

Yes, I know they don't have vaginas/can't get pregnant etc but surely if the word women is used to refer to the vagina'd/pregnant people they'd get all upset cos they are transwomen and TWAW, therefore the word 'woman' as used to refer to biological woman/ female biological functions is at offensive to them as it doesn't include them?

Knicknackpaddyflak · 21/03/2019 13:53

I have had a lot of transactivists whine to me "but you haven't had a chromosome test, how can you KNOW you have XX chromosomes?! Almost no one has had a DNA test!!"

How many couples get DNA tests to work out which of them will get pregnant? How many farmers, kitten and puppy breeders, zoos etc, do DNA tests to check the sex before deciding which to put with which to get little cows, kittens, puppies, pandas? How many pregnant women go for scans and get told "oooh it's an undecided human and we'll have to get a DNA test at birth to tell you if it's a boy or a girl" ?

Obfusticating bollocks in an attempt to confuse an unwanted reality. That messes with a political agenda.

Ereshkigal · 21/03/2019 13:59

I've always understood the 'people with vaginas' 'pregnant people' thing not to be about not upsetting transmen, but about not upsetting transwomen.

Yes, and it can be seen by the fact that men are not generally getting the same treatment.

R0wantrees · 21/03/2019 14:11

I've always understood the 'people with vaginas' 'pregnant people' thing not to be about not upsetting transmen, but about not upsetting transwomen.

YY worth comparing the lack of challenge against prostate cancer campaigns with the lobbying to remove woman/female from gynaecological cancer campaigns and descriptors.

Ben (GNC Centric) is incredibly eloquent and astute in identifying the power dynamics (use/abuse). She previously identified as a trans man & has detransitioned. She describes how very young females are coerced and silenced by much older males within trans communities:

Interviewed recently by Benjamin Boyce

'Coercion & Abuse in the Gender ID Community'

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