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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Major (positive) change to EA/trans advice

89 replies

Oldstyle · 29/12/2018 20:20

It appears that there's been a change in the official advice given to organisations about how to resolve single-sex vs transwomen inclusion issues. In favour of women's rights to single sex provision. Needs to be shouted about / shared. And failures in compliance need to be challenged.
twitter.com/2010equality/status/1079039059211759623?s=21&fbclid=IwAR0VdGYXiBe_7fw4dJuPQyHBI5gZY4x2WdWdP3nE2PG_ZOH5plyTLuS-x90

OP posts:
AspieAndProud · 29/12/2018 21:49

It looks like an official account but the use of slang words like ‘cos’ instead of ‘because’ make me doubt it. And precisely because it looks like an official account but may not be makes me more suspicious than if it was clearly unofficial. Maybe I’m just getting too skeptical...

donquixotedelamancha · 29/12/2018 21:51

Some interesting examples in the government guide I linked above:

A women’s sexual abuse crisis centre receives a request for support from Alice, a transsexual woman. The centre usually provides group support sessions, but Alice is still in the early stages of gender reassignment and the centre is concerned that other female service
users might feel that her presence affects the benefit of the group sessions for them. The centre decides to offer one-to-one support to Alice at home. This different treatment is likely to be lawful because it enables the crisis centre to fulfil its legitimate objective of providing all service users with a safe and supportive counselling environment
in a fair and reasonable way.

Jenny is a talented athlete who has undergone gender reassignment from male to female. She trains with her local women’s athletics club and she wants to compete in an upcoming national athletics event. With Jenny’s permission, her coach approaches the national governing body for the competition to clarify the gender reassignment related rules for entry as a female competitor. The governing body must decide whether Jenny’s participation would place other female competitors at a disadvantage due to her physical
strength, stamina or physique that come from her previously being a man. They will need to assess whether excluding her is necessary in order to secure a fair competition for the other competitors.

Qcng · 29/12/2018 21:51

Aspie, If the GRC process says they can [change sex] it is a lie and it invalidates sex based rights

The EA2010 states that someone who has a GRC should be treated as if they are of their chosen gender with exemptions, but not that they have changed sex.

The clash is with the GRA itself which says it's illegal to ask to see someone's GRC and that their (new/false) birth should suffice. So if you can't know someone has a GRC you can't use the exemptions.

The problem is the GRA Gender Recognition Act not the EA2010 Equality Act.

But the Twitter Thread is good news in revealing the changes to the EHRC guidelines which before were wrong and not in line with the EA.

donquixotedelamancha · 29/12/2018 21:52

And precisely because it looks like an official account but may not be makes me more suspicious than if it was clearly unofficial.

I think they've just done their header too well. Their bio is pretty clear:

Clarifying what the Equality Act 2010 says about the rights of women and of transgender people in relation to single sex spaces #IANAL

Not connected to @ehrc**

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 29/12/2018 21:53

I don’t trust the account.

But either way, is the argument that being trans is neither here nor there because when we are talking about sex segregated activities/places etc, the segregation is occurring on grounds of the protected characteristic of sex, and therefore using trans/gender reassignment/religion/age as an argument against sex segregated space is null and void, because none of those factored into the original reason for segregation?

MsBeaujangles · 29/12/2018 22:09

when we are talking about sex segregated activities/places etc, the segregation is occurring on grounds of the protected characteristic of sex, and therefore using trans/gender reassignment/religion/age as an argument against sex segregated space is null and void, because none of those factored into the original reason for segregation?

This is the point that I continually scream from the rafters. If sex segregation is considered proportionate and legitimate, it is proportionate and legitimate for access to be determined by sex and for exemptions to be applied.

In terms of the GRC distinction, as a pp has stated, seeing as it is illegal to ask for a GRC, how on earth can appropriate access be monitored/checked upon.? Whilst I don't buy the argument that it is impossible to 'police' access (after all, people drive cars everyday without proving they have passed their test/have tax, insurance and an MOT) if people cannot be asked to prove their sex, any attempts to protect sex based rights are meaningless.

gcscience · 29/12/2018 22:22

And the whole point is that getting a GRC would be easy for all under the Stonewall umbrella - should the GRA go through. You would still need to demonstrate a proportionate... etc on an individual basis. They are just trying to pacify us.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 29/12/2018 22:24

But the Twitter Thread is good news in revealing the changes to the EHRC guidelines which before were wrong and not in line with the EA.

That was what caught my eye: the change in the EHRC guidelines.

gcscience · 29/12/2018 22:29

But the changes are mainly to do with those without a GRC. A GRC will be a done deal so where's the gain? It is almost encouraging transwomen to get a GRC - why wouldnt you?

gcscience · 29/12/2018 22:33

And with GRC in hand it would be up to women to demonstrate on an individual basis for each of those tens of thousands of Stonewall umbrella relevant persons that there is a proportionate...

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 29/12/2018 22:36

Direct quote from Twitter

The law says a transwoman who hasn't gone through the GRC process is a man.

mobile.twitter.com/2010Equality/status/1079059984300806144

Wow!

gcscience · 29/12/2018 22:52

"Wow!" what?

Several learned solicitors have speculated about the EA etc. and come to different conclusions as there is so much ambiguity.

I repeat: the GRC will be so easy to get if the GRA goes through that even those who haven't got one will be presumed to have one.

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:00

They are trying to get us to take our eyes off the ball and it won't work with all of us.

scotsheather · 29/12/2018 23:33

gcscience if getting a GRC becomes simple self ID then surely it will mean hee-haw on whether a man has become a woman or what 'effort' a TW has put into transitioning.

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:35

The law is quite clear. Equality Act 2010 Section 7 states that "gender reassignment" refers only to "transsexuals" [ie those with a GRC in accordance with the GRA 2004]

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/7

"Transgender" / "non-binary" has zero legal meaning.
[As does the nebulous concept of "gender identity".]

The Equality Act 2010 specifically excludes GRC holders via the Exceptions .

The "Trans Lobby" has been misrepresenting the law in one way or another.

GimmeGimmeHellYeah · 29/12/2018 23:39

Why is it just about transwomen, and no mention of transmen?

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:45

Note also that the GRA 2004 acknowledges it creates a Legal Fiction via sections [ie; GRA 2004 clearly acknowledges that no human can ever change sex]:

12 Parenthood: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/12

15 Succession: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/15

16 peerages: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/16

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:46

See also GRA 2004 section 19 Sport

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/19

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:47

gcscience if getting a GRC becomes simple self ID then surely it will mean hee-haw on whether a man has become a woman or what 'effort' a TW has put into transitioning.

Haven't you come across ladydick?

BubonicTheHedgehag · 29/12/2018 23:47

It's an interesting read. But.

But given all this, the retention of the Gender Recognition Act and the granting of Gender Recognition Certificates, remain problematic.

As SpartacusAutisticusAHF said upthread:
As long as men can become 'legally female' sex as a protected characteristic does not protect women and girls.

And as AspieAndProud said upthread:
But then ‘the law says a transwoman who hasn't gone through the GRC process is a man.’
That implies a man who has gone through the GRC process is a woman, otherwise why mention the GRC process at all?

And the quote from the official account:
"a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female."

And Qcng:
'A man/transwoman with a GRC should be treated as their preferred gender BUT exemptions apply so they can still be excluded.
Which we all knew anyway. BUT now the EHRC formally recognise this where before it was all a bit obscure.

And MsBeaujangles:
In terms of the GRC distinction, as a pp has stated, seeing as it is illegal to ask for a GRC, how on earth can appropriate access be monitored/checked upon.? Whilst I don't buy the argument that it is impossible to 'police' access (after all, people drive cars everyday without proving they have passed their test/have tax, insurance and an MOT) if people cannot be asked to prove their sex, any attempts to protect sex based rights are meaningless.

We're still dealing in interpretations - i.e. opinions - rather than any definite ruling that female single-sex spaces and roles will remain dedicated to and for women and girls - biological, born women and girls, and only women and girls; and no persons born with male biology allowed, because sex matters.

Once again, the devil is in the detail, and possible loopholes, such as these.

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:50

The law is quite clear. Equality Act 2010 Section 7 states that "gender reassignment" refers only to "transsexuals" [ie those with a GRC in accordance with the GRA 2004]

Yes and all and sundry may get one soon.

JackyHolyoake · 29/12/2018 23:51

Again, see also section 20 "Gender-specific offences" [if ever a section exposed what a mess is the GRA 2004 this may be it when it comes to replacing the term 'sex' [biological] with 'gender' [socially imposed behaviours]]

Gender-specific offences: www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/20

[This law was obviously written by men!]

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:52

What Bubonic said

gcscience · 29/12/2018 23:54

Legal Fiction

It may be fiction, but it's still legal isn't it!

JackyHolyoake · 30/12/2018 00:14

It legalises a deceit .. yes. At the time [2003] it was stressed that this deceit only applied to circa 5000 individuals and was the considered optimum response to dealing with the issue of "same-sex marriage" and aspects of statutory pension issues.

[Now that subsequent law provides for same-sex marriage and for th equalisation of pension ages it could be said that the purpose of the GRA 2004 is defunct and that this deceitful law could be repealed.]

See the Hansard Reports:

House of Lords: api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/2004/feb/03/gender-recognition-bill-hl

House of Commons: api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/2004/feb/23/gender-recognition-bill

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