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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The overwhelming majority of women who work in rape crisis centres apparently have no problem with male bodies in female spaces?

51 replies

Spero · 06/11/2018 15:56

I have just spotted on Twitter the claim that this research supports the assertion that "The overwhelming majority of women who work in rape crisis centres/refuges support trans women and highlight absence of any problems in spaces. TERFS and right-wing media push alternative realities."
www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/stonewall_and_nfpsynergy_report.pdf

I had a quick look at their methodology section and I don't think that assertion can be supported in the slightest.

My new rule is to never let a day go by without challenging at least one thing that I think is stupid and wrong. Am I right to challenge this

(Also I want to show solidarity with those on mumsnet who are standing up to this. I read with mounting horror the threats made about those who post here)

OP posts:
placemats · 06/11/2018 19:33

^^ I hear your rage. I feel it to.

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:36

Karen Ingala Smith on the reality of women's services:

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:39

WPUK :
"The silencing of feminists silences survivors

Dear Sisters,

I’m writing as a feminist who has devoted over two decades of my life to ending violence against women (VAW). I’ve worked in frontline services in both domestic abuse and sexual violence services across the country and now I head up a VAW sector charity.

I love my job, I am so lucky. It often surprises people when I say this, as they expect this type of work to be depressing, but that’s not how I look at services like ours at all.

The VAW sector supports women as they try to move away from abusive and violent perpetrators, working with survivors to break the silence that abusive perpetrators impose on them. There is nothing to compare to the moments when these women get their voices back and break free – and that’s why I love my job.

Unfortunately, in recent months the changes to the Gender Recognition Act 2004 and the incredibly toxic debate around the issue of ‘gender self ID’ has left many more women under a heavy veil of silence, particularly for those of us who work in the VAW sector. The dark, uncomfortable irony of this silence is not lost on me, nor is it lost on the many women in the sector I have recently spoken to about this issue.

As someone who has worked with many survivors of violence over the last two decades, I am terrified – both professionally and personally – about the impact of self ID on ensuring safe spaces are available to women who have experienced and are escaping male violence. Even without the legal changes to the GRA, gender inclusive policies are already happening in many areas, these changes are ahead of the law and already upon us. Moreover they do not appear to be slowing down.

Organisations in the VAW sector can use the Equality Act 2010 for the protection of female-only spaces and I absolutely think we should. I’ve worked with so many female survivors of violence who have been left terrified of men, and who relied on female-only support to heal from the trauma they experienced. The sex-based nature of the crimes they’ve experienced necessitates this being women who share their histories, experiences, vulnerabilities and, yes, biologies. So it is right that VAW-service providers have a strong case to make for protections that enable them to employ and provide access to women on the basis of their sex.

However, to say this right now and to explain why self-ID is feared to be problematic for VAW services opens us up to attack and our ability to continue delivering services that we know change – and even save – female lives.

Over the course of many years, I’ve watched the public realm become increasingly toxic with accusations of transphobia, ‘literal violence’ and ‘questioning the right of trans people to exist’ as females – some, but not all of them feminists – asked questions about the potential impact of self-ID on VAW services and, more broadly, on female-only spaces. I’ve watched as trans activists and their supporters target funders, employers, meeting venues, and political parties in response to people asking for a broader public dialogue on the issue.

It’s been heart wrenching to watch feminist activists who have spent their professional careers fighting male violence being silenced by a rhetoric that insists we are the abusive ones, labelling us as TERFs (Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists).

Canada, where self-ID is already law, provides some interesting examples of this ‘debate’ (or lack of it), and shows that in some cases, trans activists and their supporters will stop at nothing to try to shut down female voices. The case of Nixon v Vancouver Rape Relief (VRR) was a legal action case involving a trans woman whose application to volunteer to work with rape victims was refused by a rape crisis service. The case was settled in favour of VRR’s legal right to use sex-based exemptions to exclude transwomen from working with their female clients in 2007.

However, VRR have been relentlessly targeted as transphobic for exercising both their legal right and professional judgement that female victims of sexual violence have the right to access female-only services. In 2013, a day of remembrance for the 14 women murdered in the 1989 L’Ecole Polytechnique Massacre was targeted by a trans activists protest. In 2018 and the trolling continues, a local sweet shop and its female owner were targeted and the owner doxed by trans activists after putting up a poster supporting a VRR fundraiser.

The threat to organisations who take on a stand on protecting female-only service provision is very real. Securing year on year funding for VAW services in the current climate is hard enough and I don’t want to risk our services. However, to say nothing is to be complicit in the silencing of debate and discussion on the implications of self-ID for VAW services.

This is why I recently attended a Woman’s Place UK meeting, where I made a plea to the women and men there to understand the growing fear in the VAW sector of speaking up on this issue. Even in a room sympathetic to my concerns, I felt a deep sense of fear as I shared my concerns, which I feel is a strong testament to the threatening environment facing women who dare to even ask questions about self-ID. I am delighted to say there was strong support in the room and a pledge that those who can do so without fear of consequence will speak up on the behalf of VAW services.

The fear I felt that night led me to reflect on the similarities between the silencing of feminists by trans activists and the lived reality of male violence." (continues)
womansplaceuk.org/the-silencing-of-feminists-silences-survivors/

follow up post:
womansplaceuk.org/an-open-letter-to-womens-aid-and-rape-crisis-england/

Datun · 06/11/2018 19:39

I'll watch that, Ro, when I'm less angry.

I can't get over men putting their fucking validation above that of women who have been raped by men. It's almost farcical.

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:41
Wine
R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 19:48

Francis Crook, (executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform) twitter comment:
"There were 114 Registered Sex Offenders per 100,000 of the population in 2018. This 26 page report talks about 'offenders' all the way through without saying that they are almost all men."

embedded link:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/751006/mappa-annual-report-2017-18.pdf

twitter.com/francescrook/status/1059486567197302788

previous comment by Francis Crook on males who identify as women in female estate, "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."
source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Waterparc · 06/11/2018 21:51

I have engaged under my real name with a feminist group on this issue. Two people were honest enough to say that they would support the picketing of any refuge that only served women. It was very troubling.

Datun · 06/11/2018 21:55

Two people were honest enough to say that they would support the picketing of any refuge that only served women. It was very troubling.

I honestly don't get it.

No-one is saying transwomen shouldn't have access to therapy/sanctuary. Just that it shouldn't be in the same place as women. Or not at the same time.

To disagree with that?

Makes you a true misogynist.

R0wantrees · 06/11/2018 22:09

WTF is anyone doing contemplating picketing a refuge.

They surely can't have any idea what it is for.

Do they think its a women's-only hotel with therapy?

WarmWishes · 06/11/2018 22:14

OMG! That has truly shocked me. First of all a refuge is supposed to be a secret location, so picketing one would 'out' it's location. I know locals tend to know where they are but generally the wider community doesn't.

That's before we move on to the issue of re-traumatising, traumatised women and children.

Waterparc · 06/11/2018 22:22

It was shocking, all the more so in that we weren’t yelling at each other.
It was a polite exchange.
Inclusivity is first and foremost for some people.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:25

What the staff say officially when questioned is a whole lot less relevant than what women using and needing those services think and want.
I am struggling to hold back tears at you all fighting for women in refuge. I had to apologise to a trans, literally man with penis in no way acknowledging any element of female, because I freaked out hearing his voice. Every one hated me for being cruel. She, well actually he, was beside himself with hurt at what I'd done to him, I was crying and begging him to forgive me. This was supposed to be a place of safety

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:28

I got to a place of being sorry for existing, and felt there was no longer any way for me to exist.

Ereshkigal · 06/11/2018 22:31

I've re-read my post. It certainly does not, in any way, indicate my absolute spitting, monumental, fucking incandescent rage over this.

I also feel your rage.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:33

Picketing outside refuge full of terrorised women and their DC is just terrorising them some more. It's surely to out refuges, get them on media.

Ereshkigal · 06/11/2018 22:34

I got to a place of being sorry for existing, and felt there was no longer any way for me to exist.

💐 💐

WarmWishes · 06/11/2018 22:39

Shriek do you feel able to write to your mp with what you've put here? It's very hard to ignore what you have just written. A first person account is hard to dismiss. What you have put, has made me well up. It tells us everything about the trauma you experienced before the refuge and the further trauma within what is supposed to be a safe space. ❤️

UpstartCrow · 06/11/2018 22:43

Anyone who says they can picket a refuge has no idea how a refuge is run. The locations are kept secret because they are under siege from violent men.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:50

Warm I recently was left nearly homeless (as a result of previous), and I finally wrote, to another man. I couldn't ring, and i wrote that myself and others like me need a female MP...as I tried to contact one before and was told she can't communicate with me as I'm not in her constituency.
I dealt with two women in 'his' office, but basically my pleas for women to have access to female mps was just stepped on really.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:53

Warm you can take my words and write them to yours. Everyone can take my words and write them to theirs.

Shriek · 06/11/2018 22:55

Picketing refuges is about as women and children hating and harming as it can get.

Budgieinaberet · 06/11/2018 22:55

Picketing a refuge.
FFS
I wonder if my female labour MP would say ?
She'd probably say I was fucking transphobic for not being on the picket line.

Spero · 06/11/2018 22:55

This is the true evil of what is being done here. That you are made to welcome what you fear and then apologise for being fearful.

And picketing refuges?! No clearer demonstration of blinkered entitlement could there be. Those people obviously have zero conception of the whole point of a refuge. It's address is NOT known. It is safe.

OP posts:
naivetyisthenewblack · 06/11/2018 23:10

Am I wildly off the mark to suspect that 'leadership' only said this because their funding depends on them saying it?

The Fair Play for Women report says:

Several organisations did not take part in recent Stonewall research on this topic because they were too frightened to speak openly, or because they did not trust their views would be properly reflected by
Stonewall.

There are several quotes from professionals talking about being afraid to speak up. This one mentions Stonewall specifically:

I know several organisations that did not take part in the Stonewall research for fear that if they spoke openly they could face a public campaign against them or because they were worried about whether their views would be properly reflected. It is very misleading of Stonewall to claim that their report reflects the views of the Violence Against Women and Girls (VAWG) sector, when most organisations did not take part. Professional C

fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/FPFW_report_19SEPT2018.pdf

Budgieinaberet · 06/11/2018 23:24

I know a woman who was in a refuge earlier this year. She didn't even tell her adult DCs the location. Not because she didn't trust them, but because she knew the importance for the other women and children there, that it was not a topic for debate.