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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Gender rather than sex on medical form

63 replies

TransposersArePosers · 04/10/2018 09:08

I have had a form for my primary aged child's flu immunisation and lo and behold, under child's details they have asked for Gender: Girl or Boy

This probably wouldn't have bothered me last Winter to be fair, but now that I seem to have become GC (thanks to the lovely adult human females of this board!), I am fuming. I will contact the NHS trust that has sent out this document, but would like to know whether phoning or email would be better? Or both? I want to cross out Gender on the form and replace it with sex and write Female and Male.

Surely when it comes to medical forms we should be clear as to what sex the patient is? FFS

OP posts:
reallybadidea · 09/10/2018 17:22

I'd bet money on it not being for woke reasons and it just being used as a synonym for sex. It's fairly common in healthcare IME as a HCP and certainly not a new thing at all. If it said 'gender identity' then I'd agree, but I don't think that this is something to get upset about tbh.

FekkoTheLawyer · 09/10/2018 17:22

I refuse to engage with the word 'gender' these days.

If I can cross it out I do - otherwise I tick the other/don't know box as it's just all so very confusing these days isn't it?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 09/10/2018 17:26

My new job online application asked me my gender. As it was online I couldn’t even cross gender out and write sex in its place!

Did it not have an "other" box where you could state that your sex was female and give a brief lecture on the difference between sex and gender and why it is important?

FekkoTheLawyer · 09/10/2018 17:27

That's what I do. It isn't always brief if I get on a roll...

Elephantinacravat · 09/10/2018 17:34

I didn't even notice this on the flu form actually, and normally this stuff really annoys me! Maybe I haven't completed my journey through the radicalisation portal...... To be fair I was preoccupied with another health aspect of the flu vaccine so that is probably why.

KatVonGulag · 09/10/2018 17:39

I got asked my gender in the sexual health clinic.
FFS
Get a grip, it's about biology not your feelzzzzzz

Mrsbadger77 · 09/10/2018 17:43

I crossed out gender and wrote sex on my DD's nursery application and noted it was last updated in 2014, so this shit has been going on for years and I'm only waking up it now.

TransposersArePosers · 22/10/2018 15:29

So it's now 2 weeks since I emailed Public Health England. No one has responded so I rang today and they asked for a phone number for them to not ring me on!

And I then rang the local PHE place, who asked what my query was and when I said I wanted to know why the immunisation form asked for gender and not sex there was a long silence and the person I was speaking to didn't know. What a surprise! So I now have ANOTHER email address to try. I think I'll just copy and paste the email I sent to PHE and see where that gets me. It can't be THAT hard to answer, surely?

OP posts:
newmumwithquestions · 22/10/2018 15:33

I’m loving your persistence OP!

TransposersArePosers · 22/10/2018 15:46

It's become a matter of principle to me and I will now continue until someone gives me some kind of response. I can't believe I'm the first person to query this. Or maybe I am and that is why they don't know what to say! The fact that no one has even bothered to try and answer the question has irked me somewhat.

OP posts:
Sleepyo · 22/10/2018 16:34

publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/author/justin-varney/

Just popping this out there, in case it sheds any light?

Her0utdoors · 22/10/2018 16:56

Kat my local Sexual Health clinic form asks 'sex at birth' and 'gender identity ' both questions fiving the option of M/F. My replies were 'sex is immutable' and 'those aren't gender itentities'.
My response to 'gender M/F?' on one of dd school admission forms was that if the data they need to collect is whether the child is male or female them the question they should ask is what is the child's sex. I assume the school has me down as a nut job.

TransposersArePosers · 22/10/2018 17:06

Aha! Thanks Sleepyo.

Maybe I need to copy Dr Varney into my emails? It's great that he's looking into LGBT inequalities in healthcare, but that still doesn't explain why an NHS form regarding the administration of a live vaccine doesn't want to know what the sex of the recipient is. Surely just for the reporting of adverse reactions this is basic stuff that needs to be known.

Maybe I should add a hypothetical question in my next email of 'I have a female child, who identifies as a boy, which box do I tick?' and see where that gets me.

OP posts:
ScienceRoar · 22/10/2018 17:09

I blame Austin Powers.
Sex? 'Yes please'

Sleepyo · 22/10/2018 17:45

Go for it, it would be interesting to see his response. But I would expect with his background he is very much aligned with TA rather than GC - as he's so senior might explain the prevailing ethos in some parts of the NHS? Just my own musings...

ScienceRoar - I agree totally! I'm sure it's been covered elsewhere, but in all seriousness do people use "gender" because it's more polite than saying "sex"? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case.

R0wantrees · 22/10/2018 18:56

Background to the NHS use of sex/gender.

Important thread OP Barracker wrote:

" medium.com/@anneharperwright/sex-gender-the-nhs-1e8f4e6363a6

They were ALWAYS based upon 'gender'.
The evidence is in NHS documents from 2010.
And the Department of Health were told, by the NHS team, not to tell people wards were segregated by sex, because they knew the policy was based on gender.

But the DOH purposefully used the word sex to the public instead.

We've been deliberately misled."

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396859-Weve-been-lied-to-about-Single-SEX-wards-since-2010

TransposersArePosers · 22/10/2018 19:12

I'm horrified at how much we have been hoodwinked and for how long - that Anne Harper-Wright article is appalling.

But the NHS know that there is a difference between sex and gender and I maintain that in terms of medical treatment it should be the reality of biology that is noted, not the gender feelz.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 08:32

from current thread: "We’re Still Here Conference 8th September: A report from the inside OP TheHarpySings* wrote:
Okay. So here’s my notes

1) Health Panel:
Chair was Dr Ben Vincent of GIRES.

Part of the discussion on this panel was around GPs reluctance to prescribe “bridging hormones”. GPs are reluctant/afraid to prescribe them for liability reasons. Apparently a brand of T-Gel was withdrawn and GPs are reluctant to switch brands.

There was then a bit of chatter about whether a person’s sex was relevant for healthcare stats.

Then there was discussion about trans children. Dr Vincent was very scathing about GIDS-said there was disgusting and unethical practices. BV spoke about dispelling the myths about desistance and the myths of ROGD- BV called this “concern trolling, malicious and ethically bankrupt”. BV would like a review of the whole system.

Then Dr Vincent said that they’d received a review copy of “Born in your own body” edited by Heather Brunskell-Evans and Michele Moore. BV is reviewing it for some Royal College and said “I will tear it a new arsehole”
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

Dr Ben Vincent describes influence on BMJ, GPs, NHS etc:
6/7/17
"I’m really delighted that a team (of which I was a member) comprised entirely of trans voices has been published in the BMJ (the British Medical Journal). Our article provides basic information for GPs providing healthcare to transgender people."
genderben.com/2017/07/06/i-am-your-trans-patient/

BMJ article: 'I am your trans patient'
BMJ 2017; 357 doi: doi.org/10.1136/bmj.j2963 (Published 30 June 2017) Emma-Ben Lewis, clinical teaching associate, Ben Vincent, medical sociologist, Alex Brett, Sarah Gibson, Reubs J Walsh, developmental neuropsychologist:
(extract)
"Thinking outside the “M/F” tickbox
You’ll need to think outside the tick-box about what’s relevant for my body: is a smear test really necessary for all women (and only women)? Or is it for everyone with a cervix? The same goes for prostate and breast screening, and for any aspect of medicine where there’s a distinction between how you’d treat a “male” and how you’d treat a “female.” Those categories have never been the whole story—trans and intersex people have always been here—but the medical literature often oversimplifies, to our detriment. Knowing that I’m trans doesn’t tell you anything about my primary and secondary sexual characteristics; but then neither does knowing—or assuming—that I’m not. If you need to ask, check whether I prefer to talk about my body in a particular way to minimise discomfort—I might want to avoid certain words, for example. Although I might be comfortable talking about my breasts, or going to get a routine prostate screening, it’s also possible that I might want you to talk about my “chest” instead, or help me find ways to engage with the men’s health unit that won’t cause me tremendous distress." (continues)

"Footnotes
Competing interests: We have read and understood BMJ policy on declaration of interests and declare the following: none."

www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2963

TheShoesa · 27/09/2019 16:25

The saga continues this year (this is OP)

Same issue on form, same phonecalls. This time I have been given a name and have emailed for their attention. Once again I have stated that surely biological sex rather than gender identity is what is needed on this medical consent form in case of potential reporting of adverse reactions.

Added that given that there are now primary aged children questioning their gender, if my female child identifies as a boy, which box should I tick?

Then hammered the point home by adding in the WHO definitions of:

Gender (Refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men)

and

Sex (The different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.)

I'm still not holding my breath for a reply, though, but did ask if the person I emailed would supply me with the contact details of the correct person if it wasn't her.

TheShoesa · 27/09/2019 16:26

When I rang, the person I spoke to said she could see where I was coming from, but that they were just following guidelines.

I despair.

Grambler · 27/09/2019 16:32

I despaired at this - and Surrey have gone online for their immunisation consent forms so you can't even cross it out!

Fraggling · 27/09/2019 16:41

If it asks for gender you could put genderfuck which I believe is a gender on the list.

TheShoesa · 27/09/2019 16:51

The form didn't ask for a written answer to gender, there were tick boxes against boy and girl.

I did the same as last year. I crossed out the word gender, replaced it with sex and then crossed out boy, replaced it with male and ticked the box.

Mildly satisfying, but I really would like a proper answer as to why the form doesn't just ask for the sex of the recipient!

8by8 · 27/09/2019 16:53

Or “vapogender” - gender identifying as or having the qualities of smoke, which I found on the BBC’s list of 100 genders.

Thanks for pursuing this.

FlamingoShrimps · 27/09/2019 16:53

I cross gender out on every form and write sex.
The kids moan at me on school forms 😂