Is this the future in the UK - prison sentences for transphobia

[Estellesylvia]

Pink News hope so.

Terrifying.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/02/switzerland-homophobia-transphobia-prison/

Magnolia, you are so damned right. Much genuine love to you right now, and determination to stand up for women in this bloody stupid shitshow.

Honestly, how can it be ok to physically assault a woman on the one hand, but illegal to say a man isn't a woman on the other?

The protection of woman experience abuse seems to be going backwards and instead police resources being put into whether we are using he or she correctly not to hurt people's feelings. If there were a 5th horseman if this would be it.

JenfromtheGlen wrote: It’s depressing when anger and frustration over an issue causes people to lose the nuances and head towards a fundamentalist view, because that is less likely to prompt others to behave reasonably and engage with the debate.

I would be interested in clarification of what is meant by "fundamentalist view" in this context. I'd likewise be grateful to know which people are not participating and have opted to abstain from reasonable behaviour and engaged dialogue because of this "fundamentalist view".

OtherPamAyres says The fact that the transwoman believes that the crime was motivated by transphobia is irrelevant.

CPS defines hate crime as Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity.

www.cps.gov.uk/hate-crime

Magnolia, that is beyond awful. It's gaslighting which becomes it's own, additional trauma. REALLY hope you stay safe!

Re: Switzerland, this is how I imagine The Handmaid's Tale begins... How is it possible that those lawmakers could do something like this and spare not even a second's thought for how women are affected?

Ladyfeels are so "centered" that soon women won't even (legally) exist as a distinct class of people...!? The one constant about trans is that they never stop moving the goalpost and increasing their demands -- Let's just suppose that the expected occurs and they do manage to truly convince everyone that penises are vaginas and boys are girls... But they still won't be happy and THEN what will they demand from women to satisfy their insatiable need?

Magnolia.

So the police have given your ex all the information he needs to fight the charges against him, but brushed you off? Nope, no bias there, why ever would women feel that the police are consistently not on our side?

Imagine if they do it, what the end result will be.

Spartacus will happen. Instant modern day suffragettes enduring and resisting the force feeding of ideology.

The CPS still will be in the position where they will have to decide whether its in the public interest to prosecute. If its creating a Streisand effect how's that going to work?

Sure they can try and make examples of people but the issue is that there simply isn't enough public support for this once people under self ID.

The law is only good if people respect it. If too many think the law is draconian or unjust how in force able that law is comes into question.

I'm seeing lots of women starting to say "Hill to die on".

I don't think it's hot air. Women are angry. Really angry. Many are in a position they feel they have too much to lose and their daughters have too much to lose if they don't.

AngryAttackKittens Pretty much. I had a broken limb at the time and was hiding behind a green box after running down the road. The policeman, there was only one sent to me shined a torch on my neck said there were marks but it was my word against his. By the time I got to hospital I completely shut down and didn't talk about what happened. I tried to follow up with the police but told the case was closed, they didn't even take a statement from me. I am too scared of my ex to try and fight it especially as he already has the police on his side. I have made sure he cannot contact me again and report to the police anytime he does even if it makes me look crazy.

I'm glad you're safe! But wish there was a way to hold the police to account for their blatant "protect the man's reputation rather than the woman" bollocks.

And isn't that the point? Women aren't being protected or believed yet what people indefinite as and being mislabeled is taken more seriously.

It is indeed. Actual violence against women - ignored, downplayed, denied. Words male people don't like - super important, must be prioritized at all times.

From what I understand from the article it just means the Swiss will treat homophobia and transphobia the same as racism.

So if a racially motive crime were to warrant a prison sentence then a prison sentence would also be given if the motive was homophobic or transphobic.

Unless I'm missing something?

Traceyracer

Yes, I’d say you have missed a lot

There must be place for prison sentences for hate crimes against trans people, as with hate crimes against any other group. Can we acknowledge that at the same time as pointing out that we don’t want half the population locked up for saying bits of the dictionary out loud.

Crimes against people are already crimes. It’s illegal for me to whack someone in the head with a brick or vandalise their church with hateful sayings or threaten them with harm. Once you go down the route of ascribing criminal behaviour on the grounds of motive, you open up a very slippery idea of justice.

For example; it’s never made sense to me that acts of terrorism are separate categories of crime. All the things terrorists do are already illegal, but by creating a separate category, governments get to create legislation which allow suspects to be held for extended periods of time without appearing before a court, which contravene normal processes for dealing with warrants and which impact heavily on personal privacy. It also means that the decision to declare a particular crime “terrorism”, brings those new powers into play, and that’s often a political decision. The activities of white men are rarely declared acts of terrorism.

I’m not saying trans activists are terrorists.

But I have concerns about the whole idea of hate crime as a separate category, based on motive and not acts which are susceptible to evidence.

A civil society is one in which our governance provides a framework which encourages civility but also allows people to live good lives. The idea of austerity which has taken hold in many countries, doesn’t do that - it encourages resentment and frustration.

If someone beats someone up then of course they need to be punished. Their motives for doing so aren't really the issue - they committed a crime.

The difficulty arises when we start changing the scope of what is considered a crime - and what 'transphobia' can get defined as. For my money, I think the affix of -phobia to things that aren't actual psychological fears which no one is responsible for has always been a silly thing to do.

I use the word 'homophobia' occasionally, but I really don't think it's a good term, largely because you just end up with endless dull posts about the definition of a phobia which deflects from the fact that what we are talking about is simple unfounded dislike, prejudice and discrimination against certain people. I understand why the term caught on, but I think it's a silly, lazy jargon word.

And, that being the case, it's started a trend for copycat etymology, with 'transphobia', 'islamophobia' and even 'christophobia' springing up.

And the problem with jargon words is that no one has a specific definition of what they mean. We understand what racism and racial hatred is. It's very clearly dislike, prejudice and discrimination against people of a different colour skin or culture.

It is entirely unclear, given the myriad of 'microaggressions' that come under the catch all banner of 'transphobia', what it constitutes. So what are you being threatened with jail time for? Assaulting someone? Of course, no question.

Calling someone the 'wrong' pronoun? Objecting to a male on an all-woman shortlist, or a female sporting competition? Not adopting an unquestioning affirmation approach to a child who believes themselves to be the opposite sex to that which their body shows them to be? Being a lesbian and saying no to a penis? Really, where is the line being drawn here?

Crimes like assault, murder, rape etc. are already illegal and if someone does those things, their reasons are useful for providing evidence of motive, but they neither add not detract from the nature of the crime which should be disgusting enough to a decent person without needing to add an extra layer of frisson.

But thought crimes are the stuff of science fiction and need to stay that way.

It probably is the future.

The only way this witch hunt against biological women will stop, is if straight men get on board with what's really happening, and shut this whole shit down

Women are not listened to in society. Male privilege, and male-born privilege, rules.

The sooner that obvious fact is accepted, the sooner women can focus on bringing issues to the attention of those men who will be outraged at key aspects they see could threaten THEM, + their wives and daughters.

Its unfair, it always comes down to men in the end. But those men that see this nonsense for what it really is, they are the ones we need on board.

The alternative is shouting into an ever-increasing void. We are already on the way to this now. The signs are there to read

If someone beats someone up then of course they need to be punished. Their motives for doing so aren't really the issue - they committed a crime.

Someone did beat me up, the police just put me in an ambulance and never followed up because my attacker said it was me. They just thought tit for tat even though I had been locked in the house suffering abuse for over an hour. I had physical evidence on me which I took pictures of myself as the police officer wasn't interested, still has gotten me nowhere. All I keep getting told is he said I attacked him which is completely untrue, so they dropped it because of that, because he lied and it was my word against his even though I ended up in hospital because of my injuries.

That's not enough to be believed though.

However people that use the wrong he/she name for someone is going to be taken seriously.

everything Floral said!

I agree with those criticising the concept of hate crime as too close to thoughtcrime. Plus if the hate element is in the eye of the beholder as per cps definition it is very ooen to abuse. One of the young girls raped by an Asian gang was questioned for hate crime for wbat she said about her rapist.

I bet mysogyny is not outlawed in Switzerland. After all, some counties (Kantons) didn‘t let women vote til the 1970s or 80s.

Magnolia, I am so sorry, and angry, this happened to you. I hope you are doing ok under the circumstances and are with people who are looking after you. Xxx

magnolia. I am so angry too for what happened to you, and how the police let you down. it is appalling :(

Re Switzerland - there's Bunce and Credit Suisse of course

Magnolia

There must be place for prison sentences for hate crimes against trans people, as with hate crimes against any other group.

Any other group? Are you sure about that? Misogyny is not currently a hate crime.

When misogyny becomes a hate crime, when men can be locked up for arse-grabbing or fined for shouting "I want to fuck you in the arse", then we'll consider whether transphobia should be a hate crime. Until then, self-identifying women can run the same gauntlet as born women. They want to be treated like women, they can have the same lack of legal protection as women.