2009 case of a judge ordering an intact male rapist into a female prison because he had a GRC

[Barracker]

In another thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370578-House-of-Commons-report-on-Trans-Prisoners-Published-today?watched=1&msgid=81156014#81156014
there is a link to a report published today about trans prisoners.
There's a reference in that report to this court case R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice and another (2009).

Read it, and gnash your teeth at the horror that the GRA 2004 created for women.

Key points of the case:

1. Male, 27, imprisoned for life. Was sentenced to an automatic “two strikes” life sentence for offences, committed while a man, of manslaughter and attempted rape.
2. Fully intact male genitalia.
3. Even in the male prison he was segregated from the MALE population for safety
4. He had been GRANTED a GRC. The panel were 'satisfied' that he had lived for two years 'in role as a woman'
5. He was seeking gender reassignment surgery; however, the gender identity clinic treating him would not approve gender reassignment surgery until he had spent a period living “in role” as a woman in a female prison
6. The original decision was made NOT to transfer him: "The claimant applied on several occasions to the defendant secretary of state for justice for transfer to a general female estate (not segregated). The secretary of state refused the transfer. The reasons given were, inter alia, the risk that the claimant posed to women given that she still possessed male genitalia, and the potential cost of segregation."
7. The claimant sought judicial review of that refusal. His lawyers argued that according to the GRA under s 9 that a person was “for all purposes” of the acquired gender. Penis notwithstanding.
8. The defence (the secretary of state which had denied the transfer) argued that s9 of the GRA didn't mean we should have to ignore a man's penis or the consequences of it, like the costs of having to segregate him from women to keep them safe if he was transferred.
9. His Lordship had this to say (in so many words)

10. Ok, so I won't force people to ignore the fact that this 'woman' has a penis. You can take the penis into account only insofar as it has an effect on your responsibility to the other prisoners. 11. However, this 'woman' is currently in a male prison, and should be treated exactly as you would theoretically treat any biological woman in a male prison. Regarding matters of external appearance, such as clothes and cosmetics his rights to those are being impinged. (Not kidding on this) 12. Also, keeping him in a male prison barred his ability to qualify for surgery, thanks to the gender identity clinic insisting that he had to be transferred to get it. His Lordship decided that interfered with his personal autonomy too much. 13. There was also a dollop of "we all agree he offends partly because he wants to be a woman so much" and "if we don't transfer him to the women's estate his risk profile will probably get worse" 14. It was concluded that the Secretary of State had not properly considered the effect of continued detention of the rapist in a male prison. The original refusal to put him in with the women was held to have breached the rapist's rights under Art 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights (the Convention). 15. So the transfer was then approved.

The end.

TL;DR
A genitally intact male rapist/man slaughterer with a life sentence was transferred to a women's prison despite an attempt by the Secretary of State to block it because:
A. The GRA had made him legally female
B. A gender identity clinic said he couldn't get his penis removed until he'd lived with it in a female prison for two years first
C. It was very mean to not let him have lipstick and dresses in male prison
D. If we didn't let him move he'd probably be much nastier than he already was
E. His rights were being breached.

#RepealTheGRA

barracker seafret thanks for articulating this so clearly.

How do we have a hope in hell when actual females are held in such contempt by both the men who say they want to be female and the men whose job it is to protect females. I want to fucking scream.

And this is why blocking self-ID isn't enough. The GRA needs to be repealed.

By the way, lives in Leeds now, West Yorkshire.

What in the name of fucking god is going on in Leeds? Why is it the fulcrum for all of this?

Worth putting an abridged version of this on the AIBU thread to keep it bumped?

I just linked to this thread on the AIBU before I saw the other posts. Sorry seafret, didn't mean to tread on your toes.

So angry that I can only manage one word: travesty.

I’m looking really really really hard, and I can’t see that judge saying anything about the impact on female prisoners. Wait, he isn’t…

This is the transcript of the appeal, I think it was posted on the thread linked above when Karen Jones was invited to the House of Lords:
www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2009/2220.html

There are comments about the female prisoners by some of the witnesses:

70 Dr Barrett stated in his second report: "I would say that I suspect that caution will probably lead to her being placed on a segregation unit in the first instance and that in no very great time (perhaps a couple of months) it will become clear that she is so widely accepted as female in that unit that location in the main prison will follow. I think that such acceptance will pretty generally apply in the main prison, also, although there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world."

Did this 2009 case set precedents?

What in the name of fucking god is going on in Leeds? Why is it the fulcrum for all of this?

It seems Leeds & Manchester

No words.

What the actual fuck did Dr Barret write?

there will probably always be a small number of prisoners who will choose to make an issue of the matter because they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict. If this patient is able to cope with protracted close proximity women of that sort I would judge her able to cope with the less prolonged, more avoidable, travails of the civilian world.

How how how can he get away with writing something like this? How would you feel if he was your doctor? How does he get to influence something so big with such potential to cause further harm to already traumatised women? This is the institutional sexism women - the cunty ones--are up against ALL THE TIME.

Have you seen the cost of holding Lawson/Jones in women’s seg?

It’s on one of the legal reports. 85,000 grand per year on top of usual per head costs. And that was almost ten years ago.

We know there are 12 trans’woman’ prisoners in HMP Littlehey (special sex offenders prison) alone.

Will the updated policy mean we can look forward to them all being transferred to the female estate shortly?

The GIC that insisted he MUST live in the women's estate to fulfil 'living as a woman' to get SRS was Charing Cross.
James Barrett was key in insisting this murderous rapist be placed with women.

His mysogyny drips from every word. He clearly hates women and believes their position is under the foot of the most wretchedly evil men society can produce.

And yet his submission to the 2016 enquiry warns that male prisoners sometimes pretend to be trans to access the Female estate.

I can't help wondering his motivations.
Perhaps he enjoys being the only God who can grant femalehood to men. Perhaps he wants to be the ultimate gatekeeper. Who knows. But for him to engineer a scenario that forces a court to put a rapist in with women tells me he is a very dangerous man.

Incarcerated vulnerable women objecting to a male rapist murderer with a penis being housed with them = women who 'enjoy conflict'
Rapist having to 'cope' with 'that sort' of woman = far greater burden than coping with outside world.

Vulnerable women prisoners repackaged as the mean aggressors to this rapist, worse than anything he might have to deal with once free.

James Barrett is a dangerous doctor.

(extract)
"62 Dr Travers wrote in his Addendum Report (under Question 7):
"Were it the case that [the Claimant] realised that she was going to remain 'in limbo' without any clear time-table for a move to the women's estate then the author anticipates that she would become increasingly frustrated. This would indicate a shift in her risk profile and the risk of self-harm and harm to others would be heightened. One would expect deceitful and manipulative behavioural repertoires to become more evident."

63 Professor Don Grubin agreed with this assessment at para. 40 of his Report.

As he pointed out earlier in the report (p. 5):
"A core cognitive focus for [the Claimant] is her obsessive preoccupation with wanting to be a woman and how this dominates her subjective consciousness to the detriment of other cognitions. There is an association between [the Claimant's] conscious awareness of mounting angry and a corollary need to control what she has consistently reported as having been an intolerable subjective sense of hopelessness at her perception of obstacles being placed in her way to become a woman.
[The Claimant] needs to control the threatening external world by imposing her own order and when this is not possible she resorts to stronger measures which incorporate narcissistic, compulsive, aggressive, violent and sadistic elements. ...
... As [the Claimant's] desperation to control her environment mounts, she experiences a heightening degree of narcissism or self-concern. She is increasingly liable to experience aggressive and destructive impulses.

64 (Judges comment) Such features can be seen in [the Claimant's] two serious offences and there is no doubt in the author's mind that her gender dysphoria is intertwined in such complex emotional upheaval."
It seems plain from these views that preventing a transfer is likely to disturb the current stable regime and the frustration of the Claimant's ability to progress towards realisation in full of her gender appears likely lead to an increase in her risk profile, requiring segregation, even within her current environment. There is no evidence that the consequences of the frustration of the Claimant's progress, and its possible effects on risk and the costs of keeping her within a male prison, was taken into account by the Secretary of State."

they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict

Why didn't the old bastard just say witches?

they are the sort of women who enjoy conflict

That leapt out of the screen at me too. Just how dare he, what a misogynist, happy to throw a narcissistic violent intact male, in with women who are not 'permitted' to object.

Jan 2018 Interview with Pink News: 'These powerful stories from two trans ex-offenders remind us why we need to support trans rights today'
(extract)
"Two former trans prisoners have spoken out about their harrowing experiences of transitioning behind bars.

Speaking in the Cholmondley Room in The House of Lords, Karen Lawson and Jasmine Anne Strange shared their impassioned accounts of how they were treated as transgender prisoners, enduring sexual assault, high court battles and being taken hostage in the process of being recognised for their true selves.

Offering their expertise as part of Lord Patel’s Inside Gender Identity report launch, Lawson and Strange told their stories to highlight the need to honour the health and social care needs of transgender people in the criminal justice system." (continues)

Karen Lawson:
"Unfortunately, I got took into custody on April 14 2000. I started living as myself when I was 16, so I went into Forest Bank as Karen, but it was still early days and I didn’t know what to do. I got assaulted, I got knocked out. I then got put down into the segregation unit as an element of protection. I then got moved across to Strangeways when I was an adult. They said until I was 21, they would refuse to help me out. It couldn’t happen in the youth offender estate.

I was given the male uniform, even though I had long hair and I had to wear this beautiful corned beef jumper. There was thankfully a doctor there who was really caring and understanding, and I started on my hormones in 2003.

Obviously, quite a lot of physical changes started to happen, which made me stick out even more. There were cries of “get your tits out for the lads” when I was on exercise. I was also put on the VP wing, which is not the best wing for someone trans. You’ve got all of these lovely guys making approaches. I did get taken hostage when I was at Strangeways, but fortunately, the staff were really good, and one of the staff was a kickboxer. Then they actually created a compact of how my care and management. It allowed me to have at least some of my clothes.

Then the Gender Recognition Act came out. Fortunately with some help from my personnel officer, and obviously, personal evidence of gender dysphoria, I got my gender recognition granted, making me the first trans prisoner within the UK to get a gender recognition certificate granted. When I could turn around to the wing and say I’m now legally female, move me, they really didn’t know what to do.

That still took a three-year high court battle. It took a judge there to say “no, she’s legally female, she needs to be moved in 28 days.” In 2009, I got moved to Holloway. It wasn’t all peaches and roses in the female estate either, but it was great to finally be in that prison with my peers. I didn’t have to wake up and worry about what I was wearing in the morning. Because I’d come from the male estate, there was this supposition that they’d have to take precautions.

For the first three months I was kept in segregation. I was let out on day release visits up to the wing to test how I was getting on. I went to Newhall for four years, and it was a great place for me, because the equality manager was phenomenal. She started to build my confidence up."
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/24/these-powerful-stories-from-two-trans-ex-offenders-remind-us-why-we-need-to-support-trans-rights-today/

with my peers

Yeah, no. Fuck off.

James Barrett was key in insisting this murderous rapist be placed with women.

His mysogyny drips from every word. He clearly hates women and believes their position is under the foot of the most wretchedly evil men society can produce.

And yet his submission to the 2016 enquiry warns that male prisoners sometimes pretend to be trans to access the Female estate.

Maybe he's learnt more since then? I can hope.

Those women who enjoy conflict are such an inconvenience when you're an evil sod hoping to get your perv on, aren't they?

I didn’t have to wake up and worry about what I was wearing in the morning.

As opposed to the fears of female prisoners?

From the law report:

The decision not to transfer a pre-operative transgender woman to a female prison has been held to breach her rights under Art 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights (the Convention).

Am I right in assuming Ireland has a law which prohibits transwomen being transferred into women's prisons? If so, what makes the Irish government confident that national law in this area won't be overturned by the ECHR?

"I went to Newhall for four years, and it was a great place for me, because the equality manager was phenomenal. She started to build my confidence up."

Newhall where four female prisoners were sexually assaulted?

James Kirkup: 'If MPs can’t debate a rapist in a woman’s jail, politics has failed'
(extract)
"Last week, it was confirmed that the State put a rapist and paedophile in a women’s prison. That rapist, who uses the name Karen White, then sexually assaulted four women in that prison.

This is, of course, an outrage, a failure of public administration of the first order. Many people are angry, among them members of the Government that oversaw this failure. Many people have questions about how that failure came about. How did the Prison Service come to decide that Karen White, a person with a male body and a history of violent sexual crimes, should be put in New Hall prison? (New Hall, incidentally, also has a ‘mother and baby unit.’ The State did not just put a rapist in a women’s jail, they put a convicted paedophile in prison with children).

Was this just a catastrophic failure of judgement? Was it the result of flawed policy on the handling of transgender inmates? Did a climate of unthinking acquiescence to the demands of a highly effective transgender rights lobby contribute to this horrible mistake?

These are all legitimate questions, questions that should be debated and answered by the ministers responsible. These are the questions that Parliament exists to debate: questions about the conduct of public policy." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-state-has-failed-karen-whites-victims/

& The Speaker of The House of Commons refused an Urgent Question about prison policy.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3365319-new-kirkup-article-about-bercow-s-refusal-to-let-mps-discuss-karen-white

Oh this makes me feel sick. Actually sick with the horror of it. This just shows so plainly how women are being sacrificed at the altar of male trans identities.

I feel like such an idiot, how was this shit happening so long ago but I didn't even wake up to the problem until a few years ago.

Does anyone else feel that even if the campaign to stop self ID is successful, it's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? It should never have been possible to legally change sex in the first place.

Does anyone else feel that even if the campaign to stop self ID is successful, it's a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? It should never have been possible to legally change sex in the first place.

Karen Lawson:
"Then the Gender Recognition Act came out. Fortunately with some help from my personnel officer, and obviously, personal evidence of gender dysphoria, I got my gender recognition granted, making me the first trans prisoner within the UK to get a gender recognition certificate granted. When I could turn around to the wing and say I’m now legally female, move me, they really didn’t know what to do."

Of course I'm not saying that it isn't a really important campaign and I know self ID will exacerbate problems and make the whole mess worse.

Yep, literally exploited immediately by a violent male sex offender. Whoever could have seen that coming.