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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GRA and Equality Act

107 replies

Zhora · 15/09/2018 23:36

I'm not an expert on the two acts so please correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I understand it the Equality Act covers trans people's access to facilities and services unless there is a good reason that can be argued for them being excluded. They do not need a GRC and the majority do not have one. Therefore anyone who wants to can already use the facilities of the gender they identify with. Are changes to the GRA actually likely to make any significant changes to the numbers accessing services? Wouldn't they already be doing so?

OP posts:
wheretoevenbegin · 16/09/2018 20:45

Those that do are well used to providing services in a different way or exempting on a case by case basis under the EA

If everything is so hunky dory, why are we seeing rapists and paedophiles sent to women's prisons?

PencilsInSpace · 16/09/2018 20:56

It's not 'streamlining' it's opening up legal sex change to an entirely different and much larger group of people (everyone who fancies it in fact).

There are two situations where having a GRC makes a direct difference:

  1. prison placements
    A TW with a GRC will be treated as female. A TW without a GRC may be treated as female at the discretion of the transgender case board (Karen White style clusterfucks notwithstanding). Changing the GRA to self-ID will allow any male prisoner to move to a women's prison.

  2. all women shortlists
    These are only legal on the grounds of the protected characteristic of sex. That means that legally they are open to women + TW with a GRC. TW with no GRC do not share the PC of sex with women. Labour (and probably other parties?) are breaking the law by allowing self-ID TW with no GRC to be on AWS, hence the impending legal action. If they get away with this it creates a precedent and renders any mention of 'sex' in the EA as effectively meaningless. Changing the GRA to self-ID will allow any male to stand on an AWS.

Fair Play for Women have identified another direct effect, relevant to DV refuges, rape crisis etc, which I believe would also apply to genuine occupational requirements. Because it is illegal under the GRA for anyone to disclose someone's trans status if they came by that knowledge in a professional capacity, and because a GRC entitles the bearer to a new birth certificate in their acquired legal sex, there may be no way to exclude a male person with a GRC if they say they are not trans, even if it's completely obvious. They have a birth cert that says F and nobody is legally allowed to say they were born M. This is the situation at the moment, however only 4910 people currently have a GRC and every single one of them has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. According to the ICD to get that diagnosis (or the modern equivalent of 'gender incongruence' Hmm), certain dangerous fetishes have to be ruled out first (not sure how well this works in practice in this age of stunning and brave affirmation but it's better than nothing).

I don't want that gatekeeping removed. I don't want just any man to be able to get a GRC and a female birth certificate. This is dangerous for women and girls. It will be abused. It's already being abused in situations where organisations, from the prison service to political parties to top shop have decided to get 'ahead of the law' and allow male people to self-ID into women's spaces and positions. While this is still not law we have a hope of rolling this back.

If the GRA changes to self-ID we are truly fucked. The protected characteristic of sex will become meaningless. We will have sex based rights on paper only.

TL;DR: no to self-ID.

GRA and Equality Act
leyat · 16/09/2018 21:04

The problem is that self ID makes the sex based exemptions much harder to use because when a person has changed their legal sex and gets all the privacy protections that come with a GRC, applying the sex based exemptions would usually have to depend on a trans person saying they are trans. (Think of a girls group that has female only staff, they are legally female so apply to volunteer, yet may be fully male bodied. This can't happen with transwomen without GRC's.)

And the considerations re discrimination are effected as well, for example the comparator class of a transwomen who has changed their legal sex to female becomes female and not male, and this can impactson how discrimination is understood, for example if a transwoman with a GRC has their request to be moved to a female prison refused, and they claim unfair discrimination, in judging the case their comparator class is female, and thus their lawyer only has to argue that they are being treated less favourably than female prisoners. Without a GRC, their comparator class would be male, and they'd have to argue they were somehow being treated less favourably than male prisoners. A lawyer recently wrote a blog about it. Although with that said, the exemptions are still applicable to transwomen with GRC's, so this would still factor in, however it may factor in differently.

So the EA sex based exemptions can be applied to all trans people, with or without GRC's, but with a GRC they are harder to apply due to what comes with a legal sex change, and their legal sex change may also affect the question of what is proportionate and legitimate.

All of this is already a problem. Self ID turns that into a huge problem because it's gives all of this to anyone who identifies as a woman, or at least say they do.

RantyCath · 16/09/2018 21:19

I’m worried that the beliefs expressed about the EA and GRA on Mumsnet are going to get people sacked or their company sued.
The EA builds on a number of U.K. and ECHR decisions that say very firmly that those having undergone gender reassignment should be treated as being their new gender.
The GRA removed some inconsistencies, eg trans people were their new sex for employment law, but their birth certificates still said the old sex. It also introduces protection for trans people from having their gender history revealed.
The EA protects people undergoing gender reassignment. I think earlier judgements had already established that trans people were to be considered their new gender by the law.
Please don’t take my word on this. I’m not a lawyer. I’ve attended some workshops that covered the subject . Talk this over with someone fully qualified. I don’t want to see women on this forum getting into or causing trouble , and the way some people are going on, that is what’s going to happen.
Be careful.

RantyCath · 16/09/2018 21:21

And just add, the GRC, is not the instrument that makes a trans person their new sex, and does not give any “sex based” protections.

PencilsInSpace · 16/09/2018 21:21

The other thing to consider is that governments only last a few years. The 'reassurances' from this government that there will be no changes to the EA are not worth much.

As well as changing the GRA to self-ID, Miller's trans equality report also recommended removing the sex based exceptions where a trans person has a GRC. We know that trans orgs are campaigning hard for this. I have heard this is a Labour policy but don't have the links to hand.

There have been some eloquent posts here recently about the 'swiss cheese' model of safeguarding. Every time we remove a layer of protection, the holes in the remaining layers have more chance of all lining up and rendering the whole thing useless.

So no to self-ID.

Elletorro · 16/09/2018 21:28

The exemptions in the EQA could be applied to exclude GRC holders so long as proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

However in practice the GRC makes it very difficult to use them.

I endorse the below brief explanation of case law in this area.

manfridayuk.org/2018/08/22/is-everyone-really-wrong/

OldCrone · 16/09/2018 21:33

And just add, the GRC, is not the instrument that makes a trans person their new sex, and does not give any “sex based” protections.

This is incorrect. From the Gender Recognition Act 2004
once a full gender recognition certificate is issued to an applicant, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender, so that an applicant who was born a male would, in law, become a woman for all purposes. She would, for example, be entitled to protection as a woman under the Sex Discrimination Act 1975
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/notes/division/4/9

And from the Equality Act 2010
A person who was born physically male decides to spend the rest of his life living as a woman. He declares his intention to his manager at work, who makes appropriate arrangements, and she then starts life at work and home as a woman. After discussion with her doctor and a Gender Identity Clinic, she starts hormone treatment and after several years she goes through gender reassignment surgery. She would have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment for the purposes of the Act.
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/2/1/4/3

So the Equality Act grants people who are transitioning the protected characteristic of gender reassignment, and it is the GRA which gives people the legal status of the opposite sex.

PencilsInSpace · 16/09/2018 21:51

Please don’t take my word on this. I’m not a lawyer.

Cool Smile

OldCrone · 16/09/2018 21:54

I’m worried that the beliefs expressed about the EA and GRA on Mumsnet are going to get people sacked or their company sued.

You'd really like us to stop discussing this, wouldn't you RantyCath?

leyat · 16/09/2018 22:13

The GRC is exactly what allows a trans person to change the legal sex, they need this to do that. And our group contacting the GEO in order to understand the EA exemptions and they were very clear that they are applicable to trans people with or without a GRC, because even if someone changes their legal sex, they are that sex on the basis of being transsexual, as the EA defines that term, and as such the exemptions can still be applied as they can with any other trans person.

PencilsInSpace · 16/09/2018 22:46

I’m worried that the beliefs expressed about the EA and GRA on Mumsnet are going to get people sacked or their company sued.

Sorry if we have worried you RantyCath. What is it about the beliefs we are expressing that worries you specifically? It would be terrible if if any mumsnetters got sacked, or their companies sued. Please could you explain how that could happen so we can guard against it?

The EA builds on a number of U.K. and ECHR decisions that say very firmly that those having undergone gender reassignment should be treated as being their new gender.

And yet there are numerous exceptions within the equality act that permit the exclusion of TW, with or without a GRC, from female only spaces, services and jobs. They are very firmly written into the primary legislation, regardless of how codes, guidance and local policies have tried to negate them and make them unuseable.

'Gender' isn't a thing in the EA. There's 'sex' and there's 'gender reassignment' but not 'gender'. I understand your confusion. Until very recently a helluva lot of LAs, voluntary orgs, and even the EHRC listed 'gender' as a protected characteristic instead of sex. Probably your workshop got it wrong too. Women have been busy informing all these orgs that they are incorrectly listing the protected characteristics (if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism Wink) and all those orgs are busy changing it back to what it should be. Here's the EHRC statement in response to women's complaints.

The GRA removed some inconsistencies, eg trans people were their new sex for employment law, but their birth certificates still said the old sex. It also introduces protection for trans people from having their gender history revealed.

The GRA would never have been passed if it was just about having matchy bits of paper. It was passed so that trans people could get married and could claim the state pension at the same age as those of their acquired legal sex. We've now got equal marriage and equal retirement age so the GRA is pretty much obsolete except for nefarious purposes.

This might be upsetting to hear but TW don't pass anyway. What you describe as 'protection for trans people from having their gender history revealed' is really prohibition on anybody else naming your sex, which we can actually all see clearly. I realise there was a EU human rights case over this but it's utter bobbins.

I don’t want to see women on this forum getting into or causing trouble

Don't you? That's really thoughtful. What trouble do you think women here might get into? How might that happen? What sort of trouble might we cause? How, and for whom?

and the way some people are going on, that is what’s going to happen.

Which people exactly? Can you be more specific about how these people are 'going on'? Please could you tell us what's 'going to happen'?

Thanks in advance Smile

PencilsInSpace · 16/09/2018 23:43

And this: Be careful

Where the actual fuck do you get off?

'Be careful' of what? Of who? Of you? What do you have planned for women who dare to discuss the law and their rights?

For anybody reading this who's intimidated by these bullying tactics, please be assured that it's perfectly legal for you to speak up for your rights, and the rights of women and girls more generally, and it's perfectly legal to criticise current law and proposed legal changes and how these would affect you.

Anybody trying to prevent you doing this is almost definitely breaking the law themself.

You don't have to know all the legal jargon and you don't have to have all the solutions. You're allowed to just express what's worrying you or what you think the problems are, in your own language.

Anyone can respond to the GRA consultation and it's not compulsory to follow the set-out questions (although it's helpful if you can). There is also a postal address and there's nothing to stop anyone just writing and saying:

I'm worried that if self-id is made law my mum will no longer be guaranteed a female carer. Any legal changes need to ensure this doesn't happen

or

I'm worried that if self-ID is made law I won't be told if my daughter is being chaperoned on overnight trips by someone who is male. Any legal changes need to ensure this doesn't happen

or

I'm worried that if self-ID is made law there will no longer be a safe women-only refuge for me when I am ready to leave my abusive relationship. Any legal changes need to ensure this doesn't happen

or whatever.

We don't need to come up with all the solutions for everyone else, we just need to state what our needs are as a sex class and insist these are protected by law.

GRA and Equality Act
OldCrone · 17/09/2018 00:02

I'm not sure what sort of totalitarian state RantyCath thinks we're living in. This is a democracy. We are allowed to discuss and criticise the law. We are allowed to lobby our MPs if we would like to see changes to the law, or object to possible changes. We are allowed to participate in government consultations.

The whole point of a consultation is for people to have their say. And whatever RantyCath says, nobody is going to get into trouble for voicing their opinion about changes to the GRA by responding to the consultation

Thistledew · 17/09/2018 00:08

One of the main problems with the wording of the Equality Act is that it creates the requirement to show justification for discriminating against people with a particular characteristic. Section 27 to Schedule 3 of the Equality Act 2010 provides that discrimination on the basis of sex is not rendered unlawful if certain criteria are met. It states”

“27(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if—
(a)any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

However, the wording of (b) creates two problems. Firstly, section 139 of the Act which places the burden of defending an accusation on the person or organisation alleged to have discriminated, and secondly by the constricted meanings of “limited”, “proportionate” and “legitimate”.

Take the example of an organisation that wants to provide group counselling for female victims of rape and they want to exclude men from the group. A man could invoke section 29 of the EA and complain that he has been discriminated against on the basis of his sex because although he is a victim of rape he has been refused permission to join the group. It would be for the organisation to prove in its defence that one of the relevant conditions is met, and also that the refusal to admit men is a “limited provision” which is a “proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

The organisation rely on sub-paragraph 6 to justify excluding men. This section provides:

“The condition is that—
(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and
(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.”
It could easily be argued that it would prove an inhibition to the recovery of the women attending the counselling group to have to talk about their experiences in front of men and it was therefore reasonable for women to object to the presence of men. It would be easy to demonstrate that this was “limited”, “proportionate” and “legitimate”.

This exclusion would apply equally to men and to transwomen without a GRC, as the exclusion from the group would be solely for reason of their sex. However, if a transwoman had a GRC, then in law they would have to be treated as if their sex was female. It would not therefore be possible to exclude them from the group on the basis of their sex, as their sex would in law be female, just the same as the women to whom the group was aimed.

The organisation might therefore decide to exclude them from the group on the basis that they are transwomen. Again, this would be discriminatory, as gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. The organisation could then try to defend itself by relying on section 28 of Schedule 3, which provides:
“28(1)A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to gender reassignment discrimination, only because of anything done in relation to a matter within sub-paragraph (2) if the conduct in question is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

Again, although in theory the law provides that transwomen could be excluded from the group, in practice, this becomes tricky. The onus remains on the organisation to justify the discrimination as proportionate.

This is where the rhetoric of “transwomen are women” becomes problematic.

Firstly, as a matter of public policy and law, blanket policies treating whole classes of people the same are frequently difficult to justify. If you accept the fiction that transwomen are just the same as natal women (and biology is irrelevant in considering them to be women) then it becomes very difficult to accept that there should be a blanket policy of excluding them. After all, why would you have a blanket policy of excluding women from a service aimed at women? Positioning transwomen as poor victims who have been unfortunate enough to be born in the wrong body, but who just want to live a quiet life as a women further enhances the difficulty in justifying a blanket ban.

Secondly, we have seen the woman’s perspective repeatedly being disregarded and rejected. Why should a woman who sees a transwoman as male be given credit for her view? Surely she is just being bigoted and therefore her view is given little weight when proportionality is weighed. There is an institutional misogyny of downplaying the views and experiences of women when balancing competing interests. In order to start to redress this balance it has to be accepted that transwomen are not women. That they are distinct as a group and that they maintain many or most of the characteristics (physical and social) of men. This is completely counter to the position of Stonewall et al, which has become the predominant view.

So to go back to the question in the OP as to what difference introducing self-ID to the GRC would have in the operation of these two acts, we can see that there would be a much larger group of people (men) who could not be excluded merely because of their sex. The ephemeral qualities of “transwomen are women” would come into play and it would be much harder to exclude them on a blanket basis.

We can see that this has already played out to a significant degree, taking the situation in prisons as an example. Currently, the prison service is operating as if self-ID were already in operation. It is not imposing a blanket ban on the basis of biology, but is excluding or including transwomen into the female estate on a case by case basis. As we have seen in the case of Karen White, this opens the door wide to discretion being too generously applied and to the the wrong decision being made.

OldCrone · 17/09/2018 00:15

So to go back to the question in the OP as to what difference introducing self-ID to the GRC would have in the operation of these two acts, we can see that there would be a much larger group of people (men) who could not be excluded merely because of their sex.

From the EHRC statement linked to earlier by Pencils:

A trans person can change their legal sex by obtaining a GRC. A trans person who does not have a GRC retains the sex recorded on their birth certificate for legal purposes.

This is why things would change under self-id. Any man could claim the legal sex of 'female'.

Zhora · 17/09/2018 00:50

But the hordes of 'men' suddenly appearing in female spaces post GRA reform is a straw man argument. They'd be doing it already.

OP posts:
seafret · 17/09/2018 01:10

Zhora many people are somewhat cowardly - especially when it comes to breaking taboos like men freely entering women's spaces. While there is any doubt about being confronted, and the consequnces of that, many will be sly cautious about it, and most people are also pragmatic and have no wish to go to jail so do not want to openly commit crimes.

The 'sensible' thing for these people to do for their own self-interest is to get their criminal activities legalised so they can do what they want with impunity. And the self satisfaction gained by that is a real bonus.

Women aren't stupid - we can see that is what is going on for many men.

Men already commit a vast number terrible crimes against women and children, and go to lengths not just for the opportunity but also to try not to get caught, a big part of which will be the desire not to be denied getting their kicks by abusing women.

The fact that some biased misogynst judges and biased misogynist organisations fail to uphold and deliberately try to derail single sex exemptions just means that we have misogynists making and upholding the laws. But that isn't new. Not new, not special, just the same old abusive, disordered, disturbed, deviant males. A laughable cliche if they weren't so abhorrent.

PegasusRex · 17/09/2018 01:22

it is already starting to happen though and amendments to the GRA are likely to increase that

PencilsInSpace · 17/09/2018 02:03

But the hordes of 'men' suddenly appearing in female spaces post GRA reform is a straw man argument. They'd be doing it already.

They are doing it already. Let's not make it easier for them.

CrackpotsArePots · 17/09/2018 05:03

Pencils

It's really really important that you said that about not having to fill in the document, and just writing. I have just completed it and it was incredibly long and intimidating (although Fairplay for Women's guidance is helpful). And really easy to slip into the kind of language used in the document. No wonder the Green party LGBTqerty group pre-filled theirs for their members.

CrackpotsArePots · 17/09/2018 05:06

Oh and by the way, I've not minced my words on the consultation. I think it's outrageous that its opening premise is that thee GRC will be made easier to obtain. Fucking outrageous. I did not say 'fucking' mind you Grin

OldCrone · 17/09/2018 10:03

But the hordes of 'men' suddenly appearing in female spaces post GRA reform is a straw man argument. They'd be doing it already.

They already are, Zhora. Wake up and see what's already happening.

Dr. James Barrett, President of the, British Association of Gender Identity Specialists, in his written evidence to Maria Miller's Transgender Equality Inquiry in 2015 said that there is an:
"ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this."

So, Zhora, if everyone could choose their legal sex using self-id, do you think we would see more male 'transgender' prisoners, or fewer?

Zhora · 17/09/2018 11:10

Zhora many people are somewhat cowardly - especially when it comes to breaking taboos like men freely entering women's spaces. While there is any doubt about being confronted, and the consequences of that, many will be sly cautious about it, and most people are also pragmatic and have no wish to go to jail so do not want to openly commit crimes.
The 'sensible' thing for these people to do for their own self-interest is to get their criminal activities legalised so they can do what they want with impunity. And the self satisfaction gained by that is a real bonus.

But it's legal anyway for someone to use the toilets of the gender the identify with so a GRC is not going to suddenly legalise anything because it is already. Someone who is caught in a female toilet for nefarious reasons is going to get in trouble with or without a GRC, it'll make no difference. I can see why the 'this will allow all the men to....' campaigning line is being used because it's attention-grabbing and scaremongering but it's not factual or honest.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 17/09/2018 11:16

Zhora
This isn't about toilets. It's about prisons and schools and other places where vulnerable women and children can't escape from predatory males. Forget about toilets for a moment and think about that. Read my post about prisoners from earlier this morning and think about what I said there.

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