Sex is a spectrum?!?

[LePetitLarousse]

This came up in my twitter feed this weekend.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1035246030500061184.html

As I see it, someone is arguing that because phenotypes for men and women vary normally, and because there are some disorders of sexual development, then somehow that means that sex is a spectrum. Am I misunderstanding this argument and think it is as silly as it sounds?

The point of sex is reproduction. In humans you need two different kinds of gamete to come together and create a new life so why would sex be a spectrum as a matter of course in nature - there's no need for it. There is no third or fourth type of gamete.

Yes, these biology-deniers always bugger off when you ask them for evidence of a third gamete.

These absolute numpties have no respect for the very process that allowed them to come into existence.

Individual deviations from general characteristics of a class are not evidence of the non-existence of the class.

janeclarejones, Twitter

I like to think of sex in terms of gametes, rather than the organisms that may or may not produce them. Gametes are absolutely binary, either small and motile, or large and immotile. No third or in-between category. Most organisms will produce one kind or the other and can be said to belong to one sex or the other. The fact that some individuals deviate from that reproductive status doesn't invalidate the basic principle of dimorphic reproduction.

I do believe it is the case that AIS exists as a spectrum, from CAIS XY individuals being completely phenotypically female, to appearing male with a slight anomaly. Again though, the main point stands about individual deviations not invalidating the general characteristics.

I do believe it is the case that AIS exists as a spectrum, from CAIS XY individuals being completely phenotypically female, to appearing male with a slight anomaly.

The ever-impressive @mrkhtake2 on twitter put it as follows:

@TriciaFrasman's done all the hard work for us. There is no spectrum of sex, just a "spectrum of diseases".

I’m a geneticist.

It’s not a spectrum. It’s Male and female. Intersex conditions tell us a lot about how normal developmental pathways can go awry but nothing about being transgender.

This is the point where a TRA posts that nature op- ed article as a ‘gotcha’ normally.

I’m a geneticist.

But we're not privileging knowledge, expertise, or decades of Nobel-associated lab. experience in the field any longer. Did you not read the memo? After all, even PLOSOne is privileging lived experience over the normal peer-review process for some contentious issues.

Agreed that @mrkhtake2's advocacy/work is always impressive - it must be wretched being appropriated by groups for their self-interest as the expense of your own lives/reality.

I'm very confused with all these Trans threads and issues. Isn't it gender that is a spectrum rather than sex, in that each of us is a mix of female and male traits? Hence people can flex or change gender but not sex.
Or have i got it wrong?

Nobel prize for Feelz ... sigh. Yeah it’s gping that way isn’t it?

The intersex communities seem, in general, rightly wary of the TRA narrative. They seem to have cottoned on pretty quick that the TRA interest is not benign at all and they have the critical thought and nous to reject the ideology. mrkhtake2 seems like an intelligent and sensible person.

Worth reminding lurkers that while the TRA play oppression olympics, intersex people have had some really terrible things done to them - if I was intersex I’d be absolutely bloody raging at the appropriation.

Also want to point out that intersex people don't like the terms hermaphrodite or DSD, so maybe try to avoid using them and stick to just intersex?

Intersex people have been fighting to have intersex variations depathologized, and calling their variations a disorder doesn't do anything but perpetuate that being intersex is inherently wrong and something that needs corrected.

And Hermaphrodite is just outdated and incorrect.

The argument doesn't hold water. The claim is that intersex is fairly common, around 2%, roughly the same as the incidence of red hair. There are various types of intersex conditions, therefore sex is a spectrum.

So that my reasoning is clear, the definition in biology of males is: of the sex that produces sperm, and females: of the sex that produces eggs.

There are NO other gametes in humans. There has never been a reported case of one human producing both sperm and eggs.

The name intersex might imply "somewhere between the two sexes", but this isn't true. Intersex it is a collection of medical conditions where the sexual organs don't grow in a typical way.

It may affect fertility, but in cases where gametes are produced, the affected people produce either eggs or sperm (to repeat myself: never both, and never something in between), so individuals can be readily identified as male or female (even if genitalia ambiguous at birth and some opposite sex secondary sexual characteristics develop at puberty). This includes:

Late onset congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Classical congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Klinefelter syndrome
Vaginal agenesis
Hypospadia
5 - alpha reductase deficiency

These conditions combined account for 97% of all intersex cases.

I don't know how sex is determined in complete gonadal dysgenesis, androgen insensitivity syndrome, ovotestis, in people who are not XX and not XY, and people intersex people for idiopathic or iatrogenic reasons, but as AFAIK, affected individuals are identified as either male or female. And even if it is so ambiguous that an expert is needed, these cases are so rare (0.06% of births combined) it is not appropriate to say that they are part of a spectrum.

Source data: www.isna.org/faq/frequency

If your chromosomes, gonads and genitalia are congruent and unambiguous, you are sadly and boringly sitting on one side of the binary that is biological sex.

Unambiguously female or unambiguously male.

The human race divides neatly into two sexual categories. Billions of us are living examples of this.

Sorry FlowerCupcake but when arguing that intersex is not an intermediate position on a "sex spectrum" between male and female, it is necessary to be able to describe it as a disorder.

I understand where the drive to depathologise comes from. People with intersex conditions have historically been treated badly because of it and so in a way their being has been seen as disordered. I can understand why that is rejected. It’s a bit like saying someone IS ASD rather than HAS ASD.
However, from a genetics point of view to be intersex means one has one of a number of disorders of development rather than part of the normal range of development, and so I don’t think removing the idea these are developmental disorders is helpful.
What should happen of course is that people are seen as valid humans in their own right, who have a disorder, just as any other condition should be seen - a person is a person regardless of developmental disorder, physical disability etc and they are as valuable as any other member of society regardless of it. What needs to change is the stigma associated with disorders, not saying they are not disorders.

Hermaphroditism is a very specific thing in biology and ( generally) not applicable to humans anyway.

Yes, these biology-deniers always bugger off when you ask them for evidence of a third gamete.

Maybe we're supposed to be able to replicate by splitting, like amoebas.

The funniest arguments is when they start going on about the existence of different chromosomes...in birds. Like, great, so Z and W chromosomes exist, well done you for noticing that, but if a human has either that would be a bit worrying.

I'm very confused with all these Trans threads and issues. Isn't it gender that is a spectrum rather than sex, in that each of us is a mix of female and male traits? Hence people can flex or change gender but not sex.
Or have i got it wrong?

You’ve got it wrong. Gender is a hierarchy, not a spectrum. It was invented so that male people could justify their oppression of female people.

Gender is a fiction, and a malign one at that.

The z/w chromosome system is absolutely fascinating... been absolutely years since I looked at it, AAK you’ve given me a reading wormhole for the next time I’m stuck under the baby feeding

"In the universe where perceived sex rules over biology, then yes it is a spectrum."

this is the argument that is being put forward more and more

that people are treated in accordance with how their sex is perceived (even if that pereption is incorrect) and therefore sex itself is entirely immaterial.

there are a squillion different reasons why this doesn't hold water, but, this is what they are getting towards.

How is the baby Bowl/Ramekin?

The biggest problem with the being treated in accordance with how sex is perceived argument is that it's true, and in the vast majority of cases the individual's sex is perceived correctly by everyone who interacts with them regardless of how much they may wish it wasn't.

Baby-babel!

Congratulations!
Dare one ask what chromosomes it’s assumed to have/what sex it was assigned at birth?

The mini-ramekin/babelfish sprat is doing great - he’s fairly relaxed and a bottomless milk pit at the moment. I ended up in hospital for over a week as I’m crap at pregnancy and birth but the end product is extremely cute. Never ever doing it again!

Observed Male at birth, so I’m now totally outnumbered

Tiny feetsies!

Aaaaannaaaaaaaaawwwwwww!

Look at those little toes!

I’m all done too but am enjoying my new life phase of getting excited about other people’s newborns (and not being responsible for them)!

Glad you made it home - a week on hospital food, breastfeeding ‘ one of Dante’s Circles of Hell.

A week of hospital food, anaesthetic failure AGAIN and having to lie flat but still breastfeed = definite hell.

He’s bloody gorgeous- I’m very lucky 💕

😍