Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Kathleen Stock: women's organisations have decentred biological females

37 replies

arranfan · 01/09/2018 23:11

A superb, thought-provoking, all-time classic thread by Dr Kathleen Stock: Incisive analysis of women's organisations who have decentred biological females

Too many quotable quotes to attempt to pick out individual ones. Worth reading the thread in its entirety.

Sweary Godmother has added the Women's Institute to the Rollcall of Shame. I shudder to ask as I have few instinctive affections left to me but what has the WI done?

OP posts:
arranfan · 27/09/2018 23:46

In the light of current events I think I need a shot of Stock commonsense.

OP posts:
arranfan · 29/09/2018 14:30

Prof. Stock's WPUK talk Brighton 16 July 2018:

OP posts:
Movablefeast · 29/09/2018 14:59

Is part of the answer to create an organization that is a counter weight to these organizations that are offering advice and consultation? So in other words one that has all the science and data at their fingertips and is pro biological women being centered? There are so many intellectual heavyweights who are female. It seems there are many orgs that can be invited in for a "consult" who are like a Trojan Horse in how they destroy the mission of these historic bodies who centered bio women from within?

Who at the moment would a historic womens organization turn to if they were confused about these issues? They are paying private consulting organizations to center trans women, who are their alternatives?

GulagsMyArse · 29/09/2018 15:15

oops sorry previous post, wrong thread

arranfan · 02/10/2018 13:18

Prof Stock has finally had her response to Jenkins published by The Conversation:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3382013-The-Conversation-finally-publishes-Dr-Stock

OP posts:
arranbubonicplague · 07/01/2019 17:19

I know this is the excellent Jane Clare Jones (aka @LadyPrincesexual ) rather than Kathleen Stock but JCJ has a thread about yet another organisation failing to centre women - taken the bow of shame UN Women:

UN_Women wrote: Feminist - a woman who fights for the political, economic and social liberation of women.*

JCJ wrote: When 'UN Women' will not even name themselves as advocates for women things are fucked.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1081975872465317889

It's an interesting thread with comments...

Gentlygently · 07/01/2019 20:34

Re war memorials, presumably some were transwomen? But we don’t hear calls to put ‘men and women’ from TRAs.

Anlaf · 08/01/2019 06:47

Ta for bumping this excellent thread.

I missed it first time.

And bonus JCJ!

MagicalRealist · 08/01/2019 10:18

And when these younger women have tried to explain why feminists should welcome transwomen in women's and lesbian private space my inability to accept the TWAW argument (because it denies biology, it denies history, it denies reality) and my insistence on asking how they define 'woman' has been met with responses that indicate they think a) I'm old and entrenched in outdated thought and b) I'm stupid because I can't 'get' it.

This is pure ageist misogyny. And it seems to underpin all of the transactivist rhetoric, whether it comes from men or from young women. This fundamental, automatic disdain for older women is just ingrained in most people isn’t it?

hackmum · 08/01/2019 11:09

One of the things that Gloria Steinem has always said is that women get more radical with age. I think for a lot of women it's only when you get to middle-age and seen young not very bright men race ahead of you in their careers and spent hours each day cleaning up other people's crap and been treated like a pathetic idiot by the health service that you realise just how much women are still second-class citizens.

R0wantrees · 08/01/2019 12:02

Women in Prisons
When Karen White's conviction for sexually assaulting women in prison and his serial sexual and violent crime offences were revealed, it seemed strange that this charity was not more in the press.
A prominant TRA (can't remember if it was TELI, Tara Hewitt or Stephen Whittle) signposted the charity to a BBC show discussing the issues raised by White's assault to them & I was curious.

From their website this seems to be a single-sex (female) organisation:

"Why only women?

Women in Prison is a women-only organisation. This means that all staff and volunteers are women. We provide women-only services and campaign for a recognition and response to the distinct needs of women affected by the criminal justice system.

The previous life experiences of women prisoners and ex-prisoners make the need for women-only spaces and services more acute. The lives of women in prison are often characterised by sexual abuse, gender-based violence, mental illness, poverty, educational under-attainment, poor housing and substance misuse. These experiences are compounded by experiences of prison - a system based on disempowerment and control.

Experience shows that women-only support is necessary to provide a safe, positive and empowering response to the discrimination and inequality women experience in the criminal justice system and throughout their lives.

Achieving equality does not mean treating everyone exactly the same; equality of experience and outcomes sometimes require diversity of provision. Programmes to support prisoners’ resettlement will disadvantage women if they do not respond to the distinct root causes of women’s offending.

What about men? Aren't the issues the same for them? Don't they need support too?

Our entire criminal justice system needs transforming, for all age groups and genders; we are passionate about more community support and a reduction in custody for all groups. Men make up around 95% of the prison population in the UK. This means that the majority of voluntary sector organisations working in the criminal justice system already provide excellent support for men. Men and women in prison share many characteristics. However, as a minority group, we believe women require some attention so that their gender-specific needs are also taken into account. Therefore, unlike most organisations, our focus is on women only. The support we provide and the changes we campaign for are focused on women's specific needs and circumstances. Sadly, in spite of recent developments (see Research Hub section and read Reports), the criminal justice system still fails to recognise the distinct needs of women and address the root causes of women's offending. This causes further damage to the lives of women and their families."

October 2018 statement suggests that the definition of 'women' is wider:
'Transgender people, prisons and women’s spaces'
(extract)
"Recently, there has been a stronger public focus on a small number of cases of trans women in women’s prisons. This statement responds to the broader issue of transgender women and men in the prison system, particularly women’s prisons, and community-based women’s spaces." (continues)

"For thirty five years, one of the main purposes of Women in Prison (WIP) has been to offer support to women, trans women and trans men, in women’s prisons, in the community and, for the past decade, in women’s centres, in order that they be best equipped to rebuild their lives. As far as resources allow, we will continue to do this.

WIP respects the right of any individual to transition. Drawing on our experience in providing support, we recognise the significant difficulties that this often involves. We support the right of transgender people to access services that meet their needs.

Our priority is the safety and wellbeing of all those with whom we are working. HM Prison and Probation Service (HMPPS) have a duty to maintain a safe environment for every person in prison. WIP supports the continued scrutiny of requests by transgender individuals to move to a women’s or men’s prison. WIP’s concern is that rigorous and transparent risk assessment that explores the background, motivation and potential risks to the individual and to others, is not being consistently conducted and monitored.

Risk assessment must include the individual’s stage of transition; their particular needs; any history of sexual exploitation, violence or abuse; evidence of motivation to exploit, control and/or manipulate others (including coercive control); and risk to the individual or others of consensual sexual activity, pregnancy or sexual assault. This assessment also needs to include transition plans before prison, future intentions after serving their sentence, and any risk to, or impact on the individual, and to others, of moving prison and of not being moved." (continues)
www.womeninprison.org.uk/news-and-campaigns.php?s=2018-10-12-statement-from-women-in-prison

current very relevent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3470790-Karen-White-wants-to-force-a-return-back-to-womens-prison

Trustees (some may be of interest):
www.womeninprison.org.uk/staff/trustees.php

Mumfun · 08/01/2019 15:16

Had not read it before. Fantastic insightful passionate writing.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Swipe left for the next trending thread