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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If being transgender is not an illness...

68 replies

JellySlice · 09/08/2018 16:33

...then it's surely a lifestyle choice.

Why do we have to validate people's lifestyle choices? Why do we have to facilitate other people's lifestyle choices to the expense of our own well-being?

OP posts:
Cigarstring · 10/08/2018 10:33

This article shows there are very senior figures within the medical establishment who firmly disagree with the recent changes. However, it is extremely difficult to be a lone voice against "progress".

www.cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

WhyDidIEatThat · 10/08/2018 10:37

Cigarstring - He’s an anti-abortionist who thinks being gay is deviant and pathological !

WhyDidIEatThat · 10/08/2018 10:37

And he’s no friend to women either.

Hangingaroundtheportal · 10/08/2018 10:39

If the sight of my minge repulsed me because I expect to see a dick then altering my minge to more closely resemble a dick might help?!

Maybe. Except that most transwomen don't appear to be repulsed by the sight of their dicks, rather they are demanding that everyone accepts their 'laydee penis' as female.

WhyDidIEatThat · 10/08/2018 10:48

I don’t know about that, I just wanted to make the point that health care isn’t just for illness - eg pregnancy isn’t an illness nor is infertility but NHS spends lots on contraception and so on.

drwitch · 10/08/2018 10:52

I hate the term life style choice, the issue is that for some people trying to live under the rules proscribed for their assigned gender causes them stress, emotional harm and upset. Feminists say just change the rules, others say accept people who want to live by the other genders set of rules. I'm happy to accept this difference of opinion,
The issue to me is that these rules interact with biological differences to make men feel entitled and able to take control of female bodies and resources. The protections and sex based exemptions that women have fought for are therefore necessary until these rules break down.

Cigarstring · 10/08/2018 10:53

Why did I eat that Yes I just found his article in the new Atlantic. I can see that he believes homosexuality is not fully explained by biology. I disagree with him on that issue.
Still, I agree with every word of the article I linked to.

Cigarstring · 10/08/2018 11:16

Yes he seems quite famous as anti abortionist, another view of his I do not share. I am sorry if I have offended anyone by recommending his article. I am quite new to this area and can only comment on what I have knowledge of at a particular time. I am not new to being a biological woman however, and I think it is this that has spurred on my possibly overly enthusiastic opinion making and contribution to the discussion. Thank you for pointing out my dodgy reading list, I am here to learn (and hopefully to contribute too.)

Hoppinggreen · 10/08/2018 11:29

why well yes, removing your dick might help but my understanding is that most Transwomen don’t do this
Also, counselling should be tried as a first resort, trying to find out why a person finds part of their body so distressing

seafret · 10/08/2018 12:43

Those excerpts are interesting Cigarstring. I think what we see there is a doctor very closely (too closely) identifying with their patients and perhaps entering the role of rescuer, where they will do anything to soothe the feelings of distress they see in front of them - an understandable human reaction, but not an objective one. I think their boundaries are not solid enough, and certainly they have little care for the consequnces for others.

I personally know how hard it can be sometimes to keep to the path of sanity and sense in the face of enormous long term psycholgical distress and severe MH issues, but keep to it you must if you want to help someone.

I posted something on another thread about how to deal with delusion and challenging beliefs and the 'rules' are not to appease or go along with, in the same way that we do not go along with anorexia. But that robust challenges usually entench the delusion. It is not easy for sufferers or people around them.

Social transition may help those with sex/gender dypshoria as a stabiling strategy but medical procedures were always meant to be a last resort, not something normal.

Lots of people have difficulty in coming to terms with a medical diagnosis, especially MH where a person's state of mind will naturally already be upset. But I don't think we shoud aim to reduce stigma by redefining, minimising or normalising the illness or disorder, (though I can of course see why sufferes would not want to 'not normal', and especially where theree has bene past abuse), but we can change people's understanding and views, including patients and encourage compassion for the distress it causes, not say that it is just a natural variation like ginger hair.

IDontEatFriedTurtle · 10/08/2018 14:17

Period pain is (usually) not an illness. We still treat it.

Well, we treat the associated pain but don't look in to the root cause. Is it normal for a woman to be in excruciating pain during a period? Not generally, but we ignore female pain and throw some pain killers at the problem and diagnose endo and PCOS far too late to be useful. That's what happens to female bodies.

Radardetector · 10/08/2018 14:33

Trans has become too much of an umbrella term and so it can no longer be defined in anyway, especially not as an illness or disorder of any kind.

Some people absolutely do have gender dysphoria due to mental health problems.

Some people have gender dysphoria that will cause mental health problems.

Some people have a fetish, the list goes on.

There are loads of different reasons why people are trans. Some are mental illness, some are disorders, some are not. Until we can separate the different types of trans again we can't define it, and that is detrimental to people that are suffering mental illness either as the reason for or the symptoms of their dysphoria.

Manderleyagain · 10/08/2018 15:53

WhyDidIEatThat
I guess everyone is different and should be supported to explore their options and decide how to proceed.

Sounds sensible I completely agree, but I'm not sure that de-medicalising - or removing from the ICD or DSM - is the best way to achieve that.

theOtherPamAyres · 10/08/2018 17:04

Until we can separate the different types of trans again we can't define it,

A spot-on post from @radardetector

This view, which I share, is linked to the consultation on both the GRA and the Equality Act.

Until such time as we can separate the different types of trans then we should NOT have a "gender reassignment" protected characteristic (Equality Act) or the ability to self-identify genders (GRA)

As a compromise, have a restricted definition of the term "gender reassignment" ie to people with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria awaiting or having undergone surgery. Those people and only those people merit the protection of the law.

Kyanite · 10/08/2018 18:59

Gender dysphoria

Fetish / autogynephilia

Social contagion

JellySlice · 10/08/2018 19:26

I f you separate trans-identification into two major groups, gender dysphoria and everything else, and accept GD as an illness or disorder, what does that make 'everything else'?

TBH I have great difficulty accepting a legal change to a person's gender. Why must society validate an individual's disordered self-image? We can care for, treat, accept a person without lying to them and to ourselves.

OP posts:
Starkstaring · 10/08/2018 23:23

Kyanite. In the social contagion bracket are the teens and young people with distressing and debilitating identity difficulties, currently manifesting (and being facilitated by the medical profession) as being transgender.

Starkstaring · 10/08/2018 23:28

The solution is to be absolutely secure on what constitutes biological sex, make provision for those areas where biological sex is important (safety and health), then let people identify how they wish outside of that. And be robust in defending the right of anyone to dress or present themselves however they wish.

Pretending that it is possible to alter your sex is the crime.

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