ROGDWEEK2018

[Bespin]

here is a perfect take down of rapid onset gender dysphoria

www.advocate.com/commentary/2018/2/20/rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-biased-junk-science

would really be interested in people's views on the methodology of the original abstract and why they feel its sound research to base there claim of this condition.

Iirc there was a thread discussing this article soon after it was published. I'll have a dig, see if I can find it (unless R0wantree beats me to it )

Here's something to get started on:

quillette.com/2018/03/01/transgenderism-social-construction-diagnosis/

Thread here about this article
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3280972-Rapid-Onset-of-Gender-Dysphoria-in-Adolescents-and-Young-Adults-a-Descriptive-Study

Turns out quite a few medical professionals think Trangenderism is junk science altogether.

forgive me.for.kissing that thread it only. lasted. one day and only a few people posted on it.

There is a focus on Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria this week

Transgender Trend Twitter feed have more info:

twitter.com/Transgendertrd

Embedded in Tweet twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1021428307613675520
Susan Bradley article:

'Recently the CBC withdrew the BBC documentary “Transgender Kids: Who knows best?” from its scheduled programming in response to pressure from trans activists. As a child psychiatrist, founder of the Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) at Toronto’s Centre for Addiction and Mental health and, currently, Professor Emerita at the University of Toronto, I found this decision quite troubling.'

(extract)
"The documentary, in my opinion, is highly informative, offering a balanced exploration of both sides of the transgender debate: on the one hand the “affirmation” model which takes gender dysphoria at face value, with transitioning as the solution to a child or adolescent’s distress, on the other hand the “mental health model,” which concerns itself with underlying or accompanying symptoms, and which takes into consideration the extremely high post-adolescence desistance rate of up to 90%.

Dr. Kenneth Zucker, until 2015 head of the GIC, is interviewed in the documentary.

Dr. Zucker, whose position at CAMH was terminated under pressure from trans activists, has been a special target for demonization. A proponent of the mental-health model in dealing with gender dysphoria, he resists uncritical affirmation of gender dysphoria in very young children, offering support for parents’ right to encourage their children’s identification with their biological sex, and guidance in strategies to achieve that end (often successfully). Where dissuasion is futile, however, he supports prudent transitioning.

Dr. Zucker also counsels caution for vulnerable older children, whose dysphoric persistence is likely more attributable to autism or failure to understand their gay tendencies than a true desire to “be” of the opposite gender. His appearance in the documentary as a credible expert is doubtless in itself the main reason activists were so eager to see it suppressed.

As a specialist in both Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) and gender discomfort, I am firmly in the mental-health model camp, and support Dr. Zucker’s reasonable and ethical position.

In my own practice, I have seen a good many young women displaying the phenomenon known as “rapid onset gender dysphoria,” or ROGD, which overwhelmingly affects girls" (continues)

www.thepostmillennial.com/cbc-self-censorship-part-frightening-gender-identity-trend/

Link from tweet <a class="break-all" href="//tweet:twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1021438066194550784" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">tweet:twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1021438066194550784

British Psychological Society Research Digest.
Article by Christian Jarrett
'Systematic Review: Puberty blocking drugs do not alleviate gender dysphoria'

"Clinicians treating teenagers with gender dysphoria, the teens themselves, and their parents, are faced with a dilemma – puberty suppressing drugs and hormonal treatments will likely make it easier for the adolescent to gender transition in due course, and the earlier that process begins, the more effective it is likely to be. However, intervening earlier comes with a greater risk that the teen may later de-transition (that is, change their mind about wanting to transition to the other gender), leaving them with potentially irreversible bodily changes caused by the hormonal treatment.

According to a systematic review published recently in the journal Pediatrics, adding to this clinical dilemma is a dearth of quality data on the physical and psychosocial effects of hormonal treatments on gender dysphoric teenagers and young adults. The limited evidence that is available provides only “qualified support” for these treatments, the review concludes, and while puberty suppressors have some benefits, they do not actually alleviate gender dysphoria.

The new findings – based on an exhaustive search of any and all relevant studies published between 1946 and 2017 – are published at a time when the medical and allied professions have shifted toward an increasingly “affirmative” approach toward gender dysphoria, one that at the extreme involves encouraging the process of transition at the very first signs of the condition." (continues)

concludes:
"This lack of data is in the context of a growing concern among some psychologists that the affirmative approach may have gone too far. For example, psychologist Dianne Berg, Co-Director of the National Center for Gender Spectrum Health in the US (which advocates an affirmative approach), told The Atlantic recently “Under the motivation to be supportive and to be affirming and to be nonstigmatizing, I think the pendulum has swung so far that now we’re maybe not looking as critically at the issues as we should be.”

One critical issue that has yet to be addressed by research at all, is what the effects are of hormonal treatments on teens who later de-transition. As of now, Chew and her team say there are “no known studies to date in which researchers have reported the rates and circumstances under which transgender youth cease their hormonal therapy in an unplanned manner or the risk of subsequent regret.” While the researchers say their review provides “qualified support” for the use of puberty suppressors and hormonal treatments, they conclude that more better quality and long-term research is essential, including data on the psychological effects of these interventions."

digest.bps.org.uk/2018/07/23/systematic-review-puberty-suppressing-drugs-do-not-alleviate-gender-dysphoria/

I usually respond with 'Dunno, what are YOUR views' before I answer posts like this as they always come with an agenda.

I profoundly disagree with you Bespin. I know absolutely without a doubt that ROGD is real and dangerous because it's happened in my house. That it doesn't mirror your experience doesn't make it unreal. Even more dangerous is the current push to make GD unnecessary in being trans and not appropriate to discuss with the child in case it's conversion therapy. So I'm done with you bespin and your buddy buddy persona if you think it's ok to mutilate my child. My son was a total boy until he hit puberty/ trauma/ a manipulative girl/ reddit. That combo created ROGD. You are totally deluded if you think the huge waves of kids coming out now have been gender non conforming since infancy.

NewbieSpartacus

Well I do hope your son finds there way in all this maybe as you say they are not trans but finding out who they are. I agree that there are some young people who question things and often young people can declare things as fact without taking the time to think. through them like taking a lable that does not quite fit. but that is equally quickly dropped by them. if it is not right. that is not what the article and the Dr sucker stuff talked about. anyway I. hope. you find the support your son needs. I'm sorry you think being nice to people is an act, maybe consider sometimes people are just being nice.

Gender Dysphoria is not one thing, so there isn't one way to treat it.

4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-one-thing/

Yeah, I'm not big on advocate.com. Propaganda site for Followers of Gender.

Do you dispute the existence of rapid onset eating disorders or self harm in teens caused by a social contagion too? Or is it just gender dysphoria?

May 2018 Guardian article: 'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'

(extracts)
"This rise is reflected in referrals to the children’s Gender Identity Development Service (Gids), run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS trust, which increased by 1,978% – from 97 in 2009 to 2,016 in 2016-17. Of those children, 70% are biologically female.

Bernadette Wren, a clinical psychologist at Gids, says many young people seen by the service have been bullied or self-harm, and a number are on the autistic spectrum." (continues)

"Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

"Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.” (continues)

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Bespin
here is a perfect take down of rapid onset gender dysphoria.

From a propaganda site - you do understand the meaning of the word 'bias', I assume? But as I've had a look at it now, I'll post a few words about it.

The entire theory is based on a single poster abstract in 2017 by Dr. Lisa Littman.

Well, no, it's not. Many people have observed this phenomenon, as many parents on this site have, first hand, including one on this thread.

Littman posted a survey on three websites asking parents about their transgender teens. What she failed to mention in her abstract is that all three websites — 4thwavenow.com, transgendertrend.com, and YouthTransCriticalProfessionals.org — are all dedicated to parents who do not recognize the gender identities of their children, and do not support their transitions. Littman did not post her survey to sites where parents of transgender adolescents support their children or even neutral sites.

Since she did not say in the abstract which sites she posted her survey on, there appears to be no evidence for this claim.

One of the survey questions asked respondents whether they believe “transgender people deserve the rights and protections as other people.” The abstract notes that 87.7 percent answered yes
...
This phrasing suggests a deliberate attempt to hide bias in the study, because even people who are vehemently against transgender people are likely to answer yes.

It appears that the author of this article has not considered that people might be in favour of transgender people having human rights like everyone else, but are against children being pushed down a path towards sterility and loss of sexual function and other permanent changes to their bodies before they understand the consequences of their actions.

A quick perusal of the websites where Littman drew her surveys from shows that the people posting there are often ideologically aligned with these anti-LGBT hate groups.

I'd like to see the evidence for this. Looks like libel to me.

There are frequent posts stating that transgender people are sexual deviants.

Seems unlikely. Perhaps someone mentioned autogynephilia in one of the posts.

Littman fails to note that this was a survey of parents who do not support their children.

It was not a survey of parents who do not support their children. It was a survey of parents who exercised caution in respect of allowing their children to make irreversible changes to their bodies.

The most grievous logical error is the conclusion that this is a new phenomenon, when current literature in the context of youth living in unsupportive homes would explain the observations.

It is a new phenomenon, though, isn't it? Where were all these 'transgender kids' 40 years ago?

Why would anyone be against finding out what causes people to feel they are another gender?
Where is the harm in using that information so as to be as sure as possible that people are getting the best treatment?
What has anyone to gain by encouraging a human being to surgically and chemically alter their body, especially before maturity, if in fact that is not the best treatment for them and they may regret it?

But rapid onset gender dysphoria is not a thing and is just made up. Seems this week is just another excuse to attack trans people.

transadvocate.com/rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-and-other-myths_n_22079.htm

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/theconversation.com/amp/why-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-is-bad-science-92742

There is a good (and I think fair) set of information, based on peer-reviewed research from the Tavistock clinic here.

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

"Adolescents, who present with gender dysphoria and cross-gender identification well after the onset of puberty, are more likely to also have significant psychopathology and broader identity confusion than gender identity issues alone"

"As such, in our approach, we would encourage exploration of gender roles in this younger cohort, with a view to keeping options open and not having any pre-conceived ideas as the longer term outcome"

Safety concerns
Safety concerns remain regarding the impact of physical interventions. Although puberty suppression, cross-sex hormones and gender reassignment are generally considered safe treatments in the short term, the long-term effects regarding bone health and cardiovascular risks are still unknown (Cohen-Kettenis & Klink, 2015; Klink et al., 2015,).

Thatjourno. If you could meet my child and hundreds like them, you would change your mind about Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria.

I am not attacking trans people. In fact, there is likely to be far greater harm to trans people if young people transition and end up damaged by it.

So, I'm interested in the TRA position here, and whether there is any nuance in the mix.

If ROGD is not a thing, how come my daughter turned 13, engaged with the internet, and suddenly said "I'm a boy". She has always been an individual, and has always been supported in that. But suddenly she is self harming, depressed, and being told by unhelpful voices that her short hair, 'aesthetic' and fondness for basketball mean that she is not actually female.
Is it the TRA belief that I should immediately capitulate, call her 'he', and adopt an affirming attitude? Instead of the approach I am taking which is to continue to affirm her physical reality, acknowledge her unhappiness and keep a watchful eye on her tendency to hurt herself?

ThatJourno
Why is discussion about this characterised as being 'attacking' & 'anti-trans'?

May 2018 James Kirkup's Spectator article 'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?' discussed some of Dr Polly Carmichael's comments.

(extract)
'In 2009/10, the GIDS had 97 children referred, of whom 40 were listed as “assigned female at birth.” In 2016/17, the GIDS had 2016 children referred, of whom 1400 were assigned female at birth. The total caseload for the service rose 2,078 per cent in seven years. The number of assigned females being referred rose 3,500 per cent in seven years. Why have the numbers risen in this way? Is there a clear and undisputed explanation, which would render Lord Tebbit’s suggested research into causation redundant?

This is an issue addressed by Dr Polly Carmichael, who runs the GIDS, in a recent talk to the Association for Child and Adolescent Mental Health. In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, she said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

Just in case that’s not clear, let me sum it up: the country’s leading centre for the care of gender-variant children says its caseload has risen more than twentyfold (35 times for girls) in less than a decade. The head of that centre doesn’t know why that’s happened and says the question needs further discussion."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

The lecture referred to by Dr Carmichael is available here:
soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

I find the drive to minimise and discredit ROGD truly chilling.

There are therapists, doctors and parents all saying it is a thing and the evidence of the huge increase in referrals to the GIDS service cannot be disputed.

It is happening in schools all over the place and it is happening in my family. My non-conforming short-haired DD was happy being herself wearing boys clothes and baggy hoodies and generally laughing off people CONSTANTLY assuming she's a boy (but you've got short hair! but you're wearing boys clothes!) until she hit 14 and she hates her developing body, has questions about her sexuality and suddenly she believes they were right and she is wrong and she MUST be a boy.

Coming to this realisation has not given her relief or made her happy or more at ease with herself. She is very much unhappy and, I believe in need of therapy and help with her feelings about her body and maybe some time to work out her feelings about her sexuality and what she does not need is irreversible cross sex hormone treatment and infertility and dangerous unnecessary surgery.

I try to rationalise that certain trans people feel that the surgery they want as adults - like making their face shape more feminine etc would not be needed if they had had earlier hormone treatment. Also I'm sure there are some people who feel the body shape they end up with is not what they are happy with because they went through the whole of puberty before getting treatment BUT pushing vulnerable kids down this path in case they are one of the few that does not desist seems so disproportionate I just cannot sympathise with that view.

Thatjourno
But rapid onset gender dysphoria is not a thing and is just made up. Seems this week is just another excuse to attack trans people.

At least four people have posted on this short thread saying it has happened to their children, and you're saying it's 'made up'.

Listen to what the parents are saying instead of just stating your own biased opinion.

It's well documented that around 80% of children who identify as transgender desist by the time they are adults.

Nobody is attacking trans people, but your disregard for the wellbeing of children is deplorable.

I am reading the book TRANS: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria: A Guide for Everyone (including professionals)

There are very useful introductory chapters by Dr Az Hakeem

There are also essays by a number of people with different perspectives. One of these is a transman Luka Griffen who set legal precedent in Australia:

In his essay Luka describes the discomfort felt as a young person and then as a teenager during puberty and the associated physical changes

Luka identifies the internet and YouTube specifically as been how he made sense of his feelings. referring to
‘How I knew I was trans’ , ‘Quiz: are you trans?’ and a YouTube video called,‘ How I knew I was transgender (and some advice on coming out)’ by Skylar Kergil which Luka describes as resonating completely with all of his feelings.
Luka describes a moment of epiphany,
"I felt so much relief. Because somebody actually knew how I was feeling, it helped give me a new understanding of myself. Some of the confusion, frustration, and anxiety was easier to deal with, just knowing there were other people in the world who felt like me. It was like a light had been turned on in my mind. I knew I was a transgender man, and I knew that I didn’t want to be called by my birth name."

Having read this, I searched YouTube 'Am I transgender?' many of the top rated videos are by young transmen. I watched a few and was struck by how many said, 'If you're asking the question, you probably are' there are also a great many similarities in these young people's YouTube narratives

source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Gender-Identity-Dysphoria/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnetforum-21