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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Misgendering and abusive male pattern behaviour

112 replies

lisamuggeridge · 16/07/2018 20:13

As far as I was aware all mothers had a legal responsibilit to identify and stand up to male pattern abusive behaviour. Its fairly well defined, the duluth wheel, intersectionality, case law, we know what abusive behaviour is. If someone is demonstrating male pattern abusive behaviour they are expressing their gender, so how can you be misgendering them by identifying and managing that risk? Are we not legally required to disregard identity when male pattern abusive behaviour is demonstrated? Has this changed?

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R0wantrees · 18/07/2018 17:06

I do not understand how feminism can be demanding the most vulnerable women in the country be exposed to rape and sexual abuse and the same goes for mental health wards

recent thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297578-NHS-confuse-sex-and-gender-on-advice-about-The-Mental-Health-Act

article January 2018:

'Lancaster mum with “fear of men” locked on hospital ward with transgender patient'

(extract)
"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient.

Philippa Molloy, 42, said she was “genuinely, absolutely terrified” because she had suffered a relapse in her condition that made her irrationally terrified of men – including her own husband.

When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”. She said the NHS had failed to think through the implications of allowing patients to self-identify their gender." (continues)

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

R0wantrees · 18/07/2018 17:09

twitter.com/AskNic/status/1019604196490924032

CantankerousCamel · 18/07/2018 17:10

A local parents magazine posted an article about a 10 year old drag queen and what an example he sets.

I think people are well and truly sucked in

lisamuggeridge · 18/07/2018 17:34

TI remember that. I was actually stunned by that. THat was twitter account before last I think.

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IAMcorbyndallas · 18/07/2018 18:32

I'm not surprised team snappity ducked this one!

lisamuggeridge · 18/07/2018 18:51

Amazing how scary women are when they are not scared...

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R0wantrees · 19/07/2018 08:21

Guardian editorial today in response to Cliff Richard's case:

(concludes)
"As news organisations, it is our job to tell people what is going on. That is why journalists from the BBC to the Sun have mounted such an unusual display of unity in their horrified reaction to this ruling. The idea that the activities of the police could be placed off limits to reporters is anathema. It means placing them off limits to the public. Reports of arrests can lead to further complainants coming forward. If we aren’t allowed to report on work in progress, it is difficult to see how anybody would find out when the police get things wrong.

Privacy matters, and the Guardian believes in it. From our investigation into phone hacking to our reports on the use of personal data in political advertising, we have sought to champion individuals’ rights over their personal information. We were supportive of Lord Justice Leveson’s public inquiry into the press because we recognised that laws had been broken. But we reject the proposal, made by Leveson and now taken up by Ms Soubry and litigants including Sir Cliff, that the names of suspects in criminal cases should be kept secret. Open justice – a system in which the public can see what happens – matters too."

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/the-guardian-view-on-cliff-richards-court-victory-a-threat-to-journalism

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 10:41

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable - News from Parliament - excellent new report from @HumanRightsCtte out today

www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/joint-select/human-rights-committee/news-parliament-2017/enforcing-human-rights-report-published-17-19/
Legal aid ‘deserts’ make human rights unenforceable

Take a look at the "The need for a culture of human rights" section of the report from page 39. Makes important recommendations such as focus on public legal education and teaching human rights in schools

This is a great conclusion from @HumanRightsCtte's report- will anyone listen? Please retweet and like to get this report out there!

THIS MUST BE QUOTED IN RESPONSE TO THE FARCE THAT IS THE GRA CONSULTATION.

Why is the Minister for Women and Equalities ignoring this? This is HUGE. It makes the point very succinctly that the desire to be politically correct is stiffling debate and may prevent human rights from being exercised despite the law existing. If the law is unenforcable then those rights are meaningless in practice.

On the home page for the report Harriet Harman is quoted saying the following:

Harriet Harman MP, Chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, said:

“For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced.

To do this, we must have adequate and equality of access to legal information and advice; a robustly independent judiciary and legal profession; strong National Human Rights Institutions, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission and a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and which is supported by the Government.

At the moment we are seeing the erosion of all of those enforcement mechanisms because of a lack of access to justice and lack of understanding of the fundamental importance of human rights and the rule of law.

The Government must act urgently to address this.

Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system, plays in that.

Government must exercise self-restraint and refrain from criticising the judiciary and legal profession.”

So why is Harriet Harman not holding HER OWN PARTY to these standards with regard to women's rights????

You might be interested in the names of the MPs and Lords who are on this committee. They are:

Harriet Harman LAB
Fiona Bruce CON
Karen Buck LAB
Alex Burghart CON
Joanna Cherry SNP
Baroness Hamwee LD
Baroness Lawrence of Clarendon LAB
Jeremy Lefroy CON
Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne CON
Baroness Prosser LAB
Lord Trimble CON
Lord Woolf Crossbench

This is the report summary in full:
Summary

Human rights have been central to the UK constitution and its legal system throughout its history. The following section of Magna Carta remains in force today, and can be found on the Government’s legislation website.

“We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right.”

For rights to be effective they have to be capable of being enforced. For that enforcement, it is essential to have:
- adequate access to legal information, advice and assistance for everyone at all income levels and in all areas of the country;
- a robustly independent judiciary;
- a robustly independent legal profession;
- a strong Equality and Human Rights Commission, held accountable for its work, and strong National Human Rights Institutions in the devolved administrations, similarly held accountable; and
- a culture which understands the concept of the rule of law, respects human rights and accepts that they will be enforced and which is supported by the Government.

Access to justice is fundamental to the rule of law. We are concerned that the reforms to legal aid introduced by the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 (LASPO) have made access to justice more difficult for many, for whom it is simply unaffordable. Moreover, there are large areas of the country which are “legal aid deserts”, as practitioners withdraw from providing legal aid services since they can no longer afford to do this work following reductions in legal aid funding by successive governments over the past three decades. The Government is currently reviewing LASPO and we make recommendations for that review. There also needs to be a broader review into access to justice and the provision of advice and assistance, going beyond matters which might be seen as purely legal, to ensure that people can get the help needed to enforce their rights before matters escalate into expensive adversarial court proceedings. The remit of the Equality and Human Rights Commission should be extended so that it can take human rights cases on the same basis as it supports equality cases. It should use those powers assertively and be given adequate resources to allow it to do so. Its work should be more closely scrutinised by Parliament accordingly.

There is a need for better general understanding of the role of the courts in enforcing human rights, and in balancing the rights of one group against another. Ill-informed media criticism can undermine support for the legal system which protects everybody’s rights–even those of groups who are unpopular. There is also a need for better education about the legal system in general, and the way in which it protects people’s human rights, and the Government should do more to support and encourage this.

In its strategy for countering terrorism, the Government sets out its definition of British values:

“We believe it is essential to protect the values of our society–the rule of law, individual liberty, democracy, mutual respect, tolerance and understanding of different faiths and beliefs [ … ]"

Respect for the rule of law and the independence of the judiciary are values that the Government itself must demonstrate. The UK is fortunate in having a robustly independent judiciary. There have been occasions when Ministerial reactions to individual judgments have been inappropriate. We note that the requirement to uphold judicial independence is binding on all Ministers, in addition to the Lord Chancellor’s duty to defend such judicial independence. The Government should consider whether those requirements should also be written into the Ministerial Code.

A legal profession which fears adverse consequences from taking up unpopular causes will not be effective in defending rights: the Government must be careful not to use its voice and influence improperly.

The Government needs to make sure it appropriately prioritises due respect for rights, so that administrative decisions are taken with proper consideration of people’s rights.

Individuals should be protected from abuse by the State, and public bodies should respect the law. The UK’s legal framework allows individuals to protect their rights and gives the courts the task of deciding that balance in individual cases, within the parameters set by Parliament, which includes the Human Rights Act. There is legitimate debate over how best to protect rights and where the balance should be struck if rights compete. But no-one should lose sight of the fact that human rights, and the ability to enforce them, are amongst the hallmarks of a civilised country. Government, Parliament, the media and the legal profession all have a responsibility to consider the importance of the rule of law, and the role that rights which can be enforced through an independent court system plays in that.

My Bold.

WE MUST QUOTE THIS TO FUCKING DEATH AT PEOPLE WAILING ABOUT RIGHTS.

How can women make sure their rights are being considered if they are not even allowed at the table??!

Women and children are particularly vulnerable to legal aid cuts.

I've not had time to go through the report with a fine tooth comb but my first glance at the topic headlines came across this gem:

A hierarchy of rights?
149.The Committee received submissions indicating that some rights are not given sufficient weight compared to others, which could undermine confidence in the human rights framework as some individuals feel their rights are not protected.145 ADF International commented that: “Freedom of conscience appears in all of the major human rights treaties” and submitted that “while freedom of conscience is a fundamental human right … the lack of a clear legal test to assess whether it has been violated in practice means that it is difficult to enforce.” and “recommends that the Government advances a legal test to evaluate claims of conscience to ensure the robust protection and enforceability of freedom of conscience in practice."

150.The Barnabas Fund raised specific concerns that the culture within some public bodies, including the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) and the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland (ECNI), “appears to conflate the promotion of human rights and ‘equality’ with promoting the ideological agenda of particular minority groups [ … ]” When asked in oral evidence about how the EHRC prioritised cases, David Isaac, Chair of the EHRC told us that:

“Where we think there are areas, particularly in relation to legal intervention, which are unclear or need to be resolved, we will support those, irrespective of which group it most impacts on, or whether it disadvantages a particular group. From our perspective, there is no hierarchy.”

151.David Russell, Chief Executive of the NIHRC echoed these sentiments and told us that: “[r]ights are for everyone. There is no hierarchy; they are universal. If non-discrimination and freedom of religious belief are in the balance, the commissions have an important role to play” and spoke of the:

“[ … ] commission’s important role of ensuring that the public space for human rights is opened up to everyone. [ … ] Often, the commissions have more in common with faith-based communities than we have differences, particularly around [ … ] social and economic rights, and social justice matters, such as housing and health. There is lots of room for partnership where the perception of there being a dichotomy does not stack up in practice. That has to be voiced.”

152.However, when asked to address concerns as to whether the EHRC had not got the balance right in recent years when considering freedom of belief alongside other rights, David Isaac said:

“I know that there are anxieties. The commission has various stakeholder groups and one is on faith and belief. There are all sorts of discussions, and we have frank but respectful debate on areas where people disagree. We listen, wherever we can, to those differing views, but I am sure we can do more.’’

153.Government, NHRIs and human rights advocates should seek ways of engaging more effectively with the public about how different human rights are balanced, in order to address the perspectives that human rights are “for others and not for us” and that “political correctness” stifles debate. The Government should consider the introduction of a legal test to ensure that claims of conscience and faith are reasonably accommodated within the human rights framework. The rights of minority groups will always be vulnerable, and the acid test of an effective human rights system is that it must protect these groups, while ensuring the rights of the majority are also respected.

Their bold.

Please will others make a point of trying to make sure that this gets shared widely with others in the Women's Rights Community.

IT MAKES OUR POINT EXPLICITLY.

RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 10:44

Forgot to add the images

Misgendering and abusive male pattern behaviour
Misgendering and abusive male pattern behaviour
lisamuggeridge · 19/07/2018 12:36

these are not insubstantial systems. The questions raised about the trans rights activism issue is not what is a woman, but why dont these institutions having this toxic conversation even have a passing acquaintance with these notions to the point where it's hate speech?

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lisamuggeridge · 19/07/2018 12:38

This is the intersection we are sat on. Our responsibilities and unmderstanding of these issues cant go anywhere, cos the legal duties on us are going nowhere. We appear to be suggesting that you can get rid of that at the commentariat twitter/genderstudies level, when all that would ever have done is pressed that nonsense against the reality of these systems. Us. Now we are permanent targets for even discussing this. Hmm.

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RedToothBrush · 19/07/2018 12:42

Identitarian politics is unhelpful, I agree Lisa. But not irrelevant either.

The relevance of discussing what a woman is, comes back to sex and why there is a need for safeguarding people who have a particular body over those who have a different body.

But yes on the whole, everything is framed by who are we not why do we need to protect people and what are we protecting them from and how do we do this most effectively.

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