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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/06/30/universities-warned-creeping-segregation-sheffield-launches/

36 replies

Floorplan · 01/07/2018 02:23

Hope all bedrooms are en suite.

OP posts:
insufficientlyfeminine · 02/07/2018 00:33

argumentativefeminist No worries. Just scanned through the Pew study again and no mention of views toward lesbians and gays. I'm surprised given the breadth of Pew's generational data.

OldCrone · 02/07/2018 00:42

I think that left-leaning millenials tend to have a much less rigid understanding of sex and gender than many of the feminists/women I've seen on here

I'm not sure what you mean by a "less rigid understanding of sex and gender". Sex is, by its nature, rigid. Humans cannot change sex. Gender, the set of social constructs and stereotypes imposed according to one's sex, is something that should be consigned to history. But without gender, there can be no 'transgender', which is why I have an issue with transgenderism as a concept. I believe that a totally progressive society would allow everyone to present as they wish, but not pretend that by presenting as a stereotype of the opposite sex that they have actually 'changed sex'.

The "less rigid understanding" that you mention seems to impose a more rigid idea of "gender", but allows for people to "change sex", which is a biological impossibility.

argumentativefeminist · 02/07/2018 00:49

@OldCrone Did I or didn't I make it pretty clear by the limited scope of my earlier reply that I didn't want to debate this with you? I've learnt my lesson. I will fundamentally disagree with most of Mumsnet about these issues and it's not worth my mental energy to keep discussing why.

OldCrone · 02/07/2018 01:24

@argumentativefeminist
It seems a bit odd to come on to a forum and post opinions, and then say you don't want to debate. Why say anything at all if you don't want to discuss? And you didn't make it clear that you didn't want to debate this; your reply to me appeared to be engaging in discussion, and I simply asked for some clarification of some of the things you'd said.

I will fundamentally disagree with most of Mumsnet about these issues and it's not worth my mental energy to keep discussing why.

I would like to be able to discuss this with people who do not share my views, so I feel it's a shame that you don't want to discuss. In particular, I'd be interested to know why you disagree with most of the people here. I like to have my own ideas challenged by people who hold different views - I find it helps me to formulate my own opinions and serves as a check against the complacency of an echo chamber. That was why I replied to your post, as I thought you might be willing to discuss this, as someone who holds a different opinion.

I'm also not sure why you emphasise 'left-leaning' in your posts, as though that is in contrast to people on here.

Iceweasel · 02/07/2018 05:45

The oldest millennials were born in the 1980s? Should be heaps on here.

SD1978 · 02/07/2018 05:56

So women can’t have a safe space, but LGBTQ can and should. Choosing when to segregate and when to demand integration, as, when and how it suits does not sit well with me. If you want protected spaces as a memeber of the LGBTQ community- why is it so hard to accept that others would like and campaign for the same right? Does it make you heterophobic to support this? Why then does it make you bigoted if you support the same for others?

argumentativefeminist · 02/07/2018 08:53

With a little more sleep I've decided maybe it's worth explaining my views a little more clearly for @OldCrone and anyone else who wants to know. Sorry for being snappy last night, I've just been absolutely flamed on Mumsnet before in very personal ways so I try to limit what I say and how much I debate.

Point number one, is that nobody from the university has used the phrase "explicit ban on heterosexuals". That was said by Simon Thompson of Accomodation for Students, who as far as I know doesn't have anything to do with the university and also makes some fairly problematic statements about international students in the article. So maybe we can put Thompson aside for now.

How I can see this working in practice is that students will self-select whether they want to live there, so LGBT people who think they would feel safer living with other LGBT folk will opt in, and it's pretty unlikely that anyone else will. If weird men want to get kicks off lesbian action, they'll either watch porn, or make friends with the lesbians from the LGBT flat in literally any other area of the university. I dont think it's a specific problem to this set up. Therefore, I, like Stonewall, think it's a good idea to offer something that will make people feel safer, but that wider work on social acceptance still needs to be done. For instance, if you were bi and went to this accommodation, you might have biphobia from other gay people, and that's not okay. But you'd still be allowed to live there, because as far as I can see the uni doesn't have any plans to police it.

@OldCrone regarding sex and gender. The main thing I disagree with here is that gender encompasses gender stereotypes and gender roles and should thus be abolished. Gender (you're a man/you're a woman) came slightly before all of that negative stuff was established, and isn't actually related at all to "you must wash dishes" and "you must kill mammoths". Stereotypes and gender roles are made up bullshit and we should get rid of them. But gender itself, although made up, isn't bullshit. Its just a descriptive category that some people like and find a sense of common identity and even a sense of worth and empowerment through. That's fine, surely? I really like being a woman. If we got rid of gender, we'd all be genderless, and although I'd be the same person, I wouldn't be able to say "I'm a woman", which is something that makes me happy. Claiming that gender identity doesn't mean that I want to fit into the gender role/stereotype, they're different things. I think this view is popular among my echo chamber, but I haven't seen this point being made a lot on Mumsnet, that's the basis for my earlier comments.

By less rigid I mean that I often see on here the idea that sex (vagina/penis) directly determines your gender (male/female) which I think is becoming less and less accepted, and more "fluid", less categorizable understandings of gender are being thought up. Hope that makes sense and answers everything, and that I haven't derailed the thread too much.

OldCrone · 02/07/2018 09:48

Thanks for replying @argumentativefeminist
I think we actually agree on more than we disagree on, such as that socially constructed gender roles and stereotypes are archaic and regressive.

If we got rid of gender, we'd all be genderless, and although I'd be the same person, I wouldn't be able to say "I'm a woman", which is something that makes me happy.

I disagree with this, because getting rid of gender would have no effect. What makes you a woman is not gender, but sex. Sex is what makes us male or female. "Woman" is emphatically not a gender identity, its meaning is "adult human female", and its definition is similar to other species, such as a ewe being an adult female sheep.

Claiming that gender identity doesn't mean that I want to fit into the gender role/stereotype, they're different things. I think this view is popular among my echo chamber, but I haven't seen this point being made a lot on Mumsnet, that's the basis for my earlier comments.

You're on the feminist forum, you won't find many people here who want to fit into the typical gender role/stereotype attached to women. Being happy with being a woman is not related to wanting to be a stereotype. But as I already said, "woman" is a biological fact, not a stereotype.

By less rigid I mean that I often see on here the idea that sex (vagina/penis) directly determines your gender (male/female) which I think is becoming less and less accepted

Sex (vagina/penis) directly determines whether you are male or female, but the categories male/female are sex categories, not gender categories. The gender categories are masculine/feminine. It is possible to be a masculine woman or a feminine man, but your sex category does not change.

OldCrone · 02/07/2018 09:50

"woman" is a biological fact, not a stereotype.
that should have been
"woman" is a biological fact, not a gender identity.
although it's not a stereotype, either

DisturblinglyOrangeScrambleEgg · 02/07/2018 10:00

I'm nearly a millenial apparently.

At Uni I lived in mixed accommodation - most of us did, but they also offered female only houses for those who preferred them (mainly these seemed to be women who were religious from visiting/walking around the accommodation). There were also, for want of a better way of putting it. Then once you lived off campus, obviously you chose your housemates to a large extent.

I think that the point of the first year was to mix - to find people you got along with, to socialise widely and find out who you got on with, so I'm not sure that further segregation sits well with me. I agree that if a campus is homophobic, that's the problem, and that siloing people off doesn't sound like a good solution to me.

I actually think that if we could tackle sex discrimination the same way, then sex segregation would be needed less too (I do feel as though it's actually got worse for young women now, vs. when I was at Uni, because they can't even voice discomfort, whereas I was completely free to) - but there seems to be little appetite for it, because it is very hard.

PinkCherryBlossomTree · 02/07/2018 15:18

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