At your cervix…

[TheTeaFairy]

Hello people of a feminist persuasion

I'm new to this board but have come across several fascinating threads lately. Is it me or does this (see the first sentence, at the top of the page) make other people's blood boil?

It seems like people maintain the awareness that a cervix is an actual organ while somehow thinking that a vagina isn't, probably because the latter is something men want to fuck and the former is something they don't really think about in a sexual sense.

""eligible women" and "people with a cervix"

So excluding transwomen as they're not eligible but including transmen. That exclusion could become interesting. "

• No - transwomen are inlcuded under "women".

TBH this doesn't bother me - although TBH many people don't know that they have a cervix in the same way as they know they have a nose or a leg. I know in the 80s we were encouraged (how? where? who by? can't remember) to reach up and give it a feel "just like your nose" but in general, many people aren't very au fait with their bits and bobs.

So e.g. if you have a campaign for "people with pancreas'" to get a test, lots of people might really not know what one was or if they had one. The statement "people with a cervix" implies a certain level of biological understanding, literacy, familiarity with who normally has cervixes (cervii?) etc. While "women and" is still there it's fine, when the "women and" is dropped (as is so often pushed for) then I believe it will start / starts to act as a deterrent for certain groups / or they just don't understand it's aimed at them.

So there is a massive balance to be had here.

Ah to the point above - if words are malleable and all bets are off, what even is a cervix? Good point. Different people may have different views and they are all valid obv.

Just as an aside, all women who have a cervix should be included in cervical screening, including lesbians and women who have never had sex. This comes up every now and again but the current evidence is that HPV is so prevalent amongst the general population that PIV sex is not a pre-requisite to needing to have a smear test.
As you were....

What does the neovagina connect to on a post-GRS transwoman? Surely that's a cervix too (as much of a cervix as a neovagina is a vagina, anyhow)

No - a neovagina is nothing like a vagina really - it's just a pocket, it's not got any muscles, it's not the right kind of tissue, and it has nowhere to go (and hence, no need for a cervix - no womb to keep the nasties shut out of whilst allowing the flow of period blood or the ejection of babies.

What does the neovagina connect to on a post-GRS transwoman? Surely that's a cervix too (as much of a cervix as a neovagina is a vagina, anyhow). Why is only "vagina" being co-opted, and not cervix?

As far as I understand it, the cervix is actually part of the uterus (it is often referred to as the "neck of the womb"), so it is part of that organ. The cervix descends into the vagina and the vaginal tract is actually attached to the upper sides of the cervix.

The cervix is a bit like a balloon neck: the ribbed bit that you put to your lips and blow through to inflate the balloon and then tie a knot in. It's part of the balloon itself (the balloon being the uterus). The vagina, using this analogy, would be like putting the end of a drinking straw around the rib of the balloon neck and sticking it with super glue.

I am not entirely sure some of this metaphor works. But hopefully you get the picture.

So to co-opt the cervix, you would need the neo-vagina to connect with the neck of some sort of pseudo-uterus structure. As far as I understand it, neo-vaginas are sheaths, a bit like inverted condoms. There's nothing at the other end.

The cervix is a bit like a balloon neck: the ribbed bit that you put to your lips and blow through to inflate the balloon and then tie a knot in. It's part of the balloon itself (the balloon being the uterus). The vagina, using this analogy, would be like putting the end of a drinking straw around the rib of the balloon neck and sticking it with super glue.

I quite love the image you have conjured up in my mind with this, thank you

But if the neovagina isn't attached to anything at the other end, then does it just flop about inside like a deflated sausage-shape balloon, until a penis is put in? And if so, do all the organs that were previously in that position not move back there?

I think you have to regularly inflate/stretch/dilate it to keep it as it should be?

But if the neovagina isn't attached to anything at the other end, then does it just flop about inside like a deflated sausage-shape balloon, until a penis is put in?

They have to keep dilating it (multiple times per day initially, then less so), otherwise it basically sticks to itself (being inverted-penis skin) and nothing like vaginal tissue. Plus, not self-cleaning like a vagina, and nasty smelly can be the result of these neovags.

I have read accounts of some transwomen who insist on going for a papsmear (for 'validation of their womanhood'), but further insisting the person (doctor/nurse) 'totally' could not tell it was a negvag. I would dispute that! And so would the medical texts!

It's like they think that since they don't wank to the idea of ovaries etc they don't exist and a doctor won't notice they're not there. Even if a woman had had a hysterectomy that would be something noticed and noted, the doctor wouldn't be going "oh well I guess some women just only have a vagina and nothing else" (shrugs), not to mention the neovagina being nothing like a vagina internally either.

Maybe 'vagina' is being co-opted because so many people think it means vulva? Thereby representing femaleness to them. Or maybe it's representative because its existence allows the former penetrator become the penetrated? Who knows. But it won't have a cervix at the top of it in a trans woman. It'll just be a blind end.

Are any of the charities involved with men's health using more inclusive langauge? Just wondering if the phrase 'men and people with prostrates' is similarly being used.

In my opinion, it's fine. The English is a bit clunky but if it means that trans men and non binary people go in for healthcare: fuck it. Worth it.

Whether you think trans men or non binary people ought to exist or are wrong about their feelings is neither here nor there. THEY don't call themselves women and THEY are put off by that sort of phrasing. It's just a kindness to reach out a hand to everyone that can get cervical cancer.

If they took out the word "women", then I think there's something worth getting upset about but we're not being erased.

Interesting question about whether trans women and non binary people with prostates are being included in health campaigns. A quick google: www.tackleprostate.org/about-us.php
Yep, they are. "People with prostate cancer"

And then:-
www.tackleprostate.org/some_facts.php
no they're not.

Some female identified males are so delusional they demand smear reminder letters even though... dick etc.

I think that "people with prostate cancer" is not worded that way to inclusion but just because they worded it that way. Couple of clicks gave me "Save a Dad" and "112 men are diagnosed with prostate cancer every day".

The link supplied is also transphobic as it states the prostate is "only found in men", also related to what I was saying earlier it contains the following:

" In a recent survey of 3,500 men, 54% didn't know where their prostate was,
92% were clueless about its role and 17% didn't even know they had a prostate. "

So campaigns aimed at "prostate owners" are going to miss 17% of men who will simply not have the literature trigger that it is talking to them.

I really believe that we need alternative words for cunty people and dicky people - if men/ women / male / female / girl / boy really need to be repurposed to mean "any human being who says that is what they are with no other shared characteristics" and of course if this language embeds properly, most people are non binary so most people will not have any of these words. We still need to know who is a cunty person and who is a dicky persion for reasons like healthcare (as shown here), and all the other stuff where many women are saying we need cunty people and dicky people separate.

The idea though is that there is not ALLOWED to be a group word for cunty people, for any reason, at all, and that is really troubing. And WILL have repurcussions as shown by the example above.

I suppose we could say "people with cunts" and "people with dicks" but that is all man / woman / girl / boy / female / male ever meant anyway. And it's a bit long winded. And in biology lessons "people with cunts can be at risk of this, people with dicks that" it's a bit long winded isn't it?

++

Are the TAs aware of this exclusionary charity? Have they launched an attack on them on social media as they have with charities that talk about women and girls. Have the been explaining to men that if they ask for a man to examine their prostate and then someone 5' with tits and a high pitched voice and is, you know, a woman, walks in, then they shouldn't question it?

They wish only to erase women out of existence so they do not care.

So hang on, both trans women and trans men have a go at women's charities for being transphobic and exclusionary? But not men's charities?

They wish only to erase women out of existence so they do not care.

Men and non-men?

Exactly. You are a fantastic linker btw. Do you have folders on your pute or do you search every time? It's terribly helpful.

Thank you. Its just the way my head works... I suspect having done an English degree plays a role in how I process things, so its more like finding something I read which resonated amongst a pile of books. The advantage of the pute means my floor is clear though!

I takes me an age to articulate my own opinion & I really admire those who are clear and direct. I do sometimes see links which I think might be of interest.

"So hang on, both trans women and trans men have a go at women's charities for being transphobic and exclusionary? But not men's charities?"

• No - I've seen women (libfem sorts), men (leftbro sorts) and TRA (usually IME TW) have a go at charities for women and girls. Transmen seem to be a lot quieter on all of this stuff which is interesting in itself really.

I takes me an age to articulate my own opinion & I really admire those who are clear and direct. I do sometimes see links which I think might be of interest.

Your linking of relevant articles is a fantastic asset to this board. Thank you

CRUK Twitter campaign:

"Cervical screening (or the smear test) is relevant for everyone aged 25-64 with a cervix. Watch our animation to find out what to expect when you go for screening"

twitter.com/CR_UK/status/1006857678767951872