Even without self ID you can change your documents

[SwearyGodPervert]

One of the brave ManFriday chaps shows here how easily people falsify their documents re their sex in spite of them not having a GRC.

What is the point of a sex marker on a document if it isn’t accurate? And what is the point of the GRA if it’s already ignored?

He (its Friday, so I’m not misgendering MNHQ) explains it better than I can on the blog so do have a read.

Drivinglicenceman - it can be if the gatekeeping exists in the way it does now - to ensure the person wishing to transition is genuine, intends to do so permanently, has successfully transitioned and is a contributing member to society and is not regretting it and they have had a psychological assessment to ensure they have no problems that should be dealt with first in case post transition there is any risk to them or those they interact with.

None of the above necessitates a medical definition of dysphoria.

So it is self ID that is the basis of the transition.

What it is - however - is self ID with some give and take and built in checks and balances to just ensure this 'choice' has been made without any clear risk to others.

The concern is not so much about people being free to self identify. They do now and will with or without any law.

It is about legalising status in many significant ways without any of the safeguards that currently exist.

Human rights laws would probably not allow insistence on medical treatment as well. One reason it is not part of the current GRA - although the other safeguards mean those who go through those often do engage in medical support.

I wonder if the powers that be at Home Office and Department for Transport actually realise that this is the current position?

Olennas, I fear that a lot of pre-empting of the self ID changes have occurred given the mass media reaction and the signals being sent out by all political parties that they seem to support it.

So things are being introduced voluntarily on the assumption it will happen soon anyway.

We ought to press someone in government to look at all of this.

To get legal opinion on the interpretation of the GRA and the Equality Act and their sometimes confusing commentary on transgender status and when and where a GRC is required.

Doing that and issuing guidance might at least ensure that we do not go too far too fast by default and end up with self ID in place before anyone bothers to pass an act of parliament.

If it happens, it happens, but it should happen democratically not whilst nobody is looking.

Insurers stopped doing different packages for males and females long ago so changing M/F doesn't make any difference, I believe.

Funny how the government was able to erradicate "proper sexism" when it wanted to eh.

Have name changed for this.
My middle child is a (very) young adult who identifies as the opposite sex.
They have had no medical intervention, although waiting for a GID clinic appointment.
On the basis of a letter from the GP plus a Deed Poll, they have a passport which states their sex as different to the one they were born as.
The GP then rang and said that their NHS card will be changed. This wasn't asked for by my child. So now all their medical treatment will offered and recorded on the basis of being a different biological sex to the one they actually are.

Even my adamant strong-headed kid thinks this was unnecessary (although of course didn't turn it down).

Is this a product of Equality Law? Would the NHS or passport office be guilty of discrimination if they said that recording biological sex is necessary for safety reasons, but we can record your gender to be as the one you identify as?

Yeah, I pointed out that I believed this was the case on a thread a little while back. So I was right then? Good to know.

So self-ID doesn't make all that big a difference, no? That's the context in which I was bringing it up on the other thread. Is that not right?

And if anyone's saying this means spurious, shady characters may now be able to get documents through misrepresentation, I'm sure spurious, shady characters have always been able to do that; me and my mates all had ID to buy booze long before we were 18, and we weren't nearly half as motivated as I imagine Mr.Pervert is, and we barely even had the internet!

Funny story, a friend of mine noticed days before a big oversees trip that her passport said "M" on it. She'd done a massive load of traveling over the years and somehow neither she nor anyone else had noticed

When a person receives as GRC, HMRC find out automatically then tell the DWP.

www.gov.uk/tell-hmrc-change-of-details/gender-change

Plus, in guidance - If a customer has changed gender, we do not amend our records until the customer has provided us with a full gender recognition certificate.

For a UK passport the Policy is here

• assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/118573/gender-recognition.pdf which refers to transvestites. It is a number of years old now.

Here is the guidance on creating content for gov.uk - the portal for all UK government departments external digital content
www.gov.uk/service-manual/design/gender-or-sex

If you do need to ask, use ‘sex’ when you need biological data (for example, if you’re providing a medical service). In all other cases, use ‘gender’.

I wonder why the NHS have taken a different position. The government do seem fragmented on this.

If I self Id as a man. And I have sex with my boyfriend. Am I then subject to the waiting time before I can donate blood? Since I'm a man who has sex with a man.

I mean, im a feminine presenting man, who's preferred title is Ms, and my preferred pronouns are she/her, but I'm just widening peoples perceptions of what a man is

Also, any tips for informing my boyfriend that he's gay now?

I think the opposite is more worrying, GinandSonic. According to a LibDem spokesperson, if you are a transwoman who has sex with a man, you are then NOT subject to the waiting time before giving blood.

The person concerned seemed quite pleased about it.

Found it:
twitter.com/LGBTLD/status/979423663547146240

Is this going to be picked up by the press OP? This raises so many questions well beyond feminism.

Dodo, it's barking mad isn't it?!

We’ve spoken to the press, time will tell if they print it. I wonder whether they need to complete the process themselves - like with the DM article on obtaining cross sex hormones for 15 year olds online - for the purposes of journalistic integrity.

I think it’s massively important and needs highlighting as explained above by DrivingLicenceMan and I hope that the press see there is a public interest here.

So if our driving licences record gender rather than sex what's the point of recording it at all?

I don't identify as female because I reject gender identity. So DVLA has been mis-gendering me all this time

Waddle - that's the pertinent question...

I'm a big believer in cock up not conspiracy, and I also know something of the operational workings of big government departments and I strongly suspect that someone at a relatively junior level has made the decision to be able to amend driving licences and passports in this way without any political instruction / knowledge / cover

I expect the officials concerned had equality training that told them transwomen are women; transmen are men and you will be breaching their human rights if you do anything other than trat them as their identified gender.

The medical aspect of this is really concerning.

A relative of mine has cancer. When you look up outcomes for that type of cancer, it says something along the lines of:

For men, 5 year survival rates are 70%
For women, 5 year survival rates 75%

So does that mean, that, biologically there is a difference in reaction to chemo or surgery; does it mean that women report their symptoms earlier; does it mean that women comply with medical treatment better; does it mean that men are more likely to have other health issues, etc etc?

Without knowing whether the men in the statistics are actually male adult humans and women are adult female humans, how is this information going to inform future treatment?

If I self Id as a man. And I have sex with my boyfriend. Am I then subject to the waiting time before I can donate blood? Since I'm a man who has sex with a man.

Yes.

1: Male sexual partners of transgender women
Male sexual partners of transgender women would not fall under the men who have sex with men deferral policy in their assessment. Other guidance may prevent donation but this situation would not.

2: Male sexual partners of transgender men
Male sexual partners of transgender men can not donate for 12 months as per the men who have sex with men deferral guidance.

...

8: The criteria by which a transgender woman will be considered by NHSBT to be a woman for the purposes of the MSM deferral.
If a donor states that they are a woman we accept that and do not enquire about their birth gender.

9: The criteria by which a transgender man will be considered by NHSBT to be a man for the purposes of the MSM deferral.
If a donor states that they are a man we accept that and do not enquire about their birth gender.

The deferral period for MSM is due to be lowered to 3 months but I don't know if that's happened yet.

There's some other issues in that link as well to do with the different haemoglobin levels you need to safely give blood as a man or a woman.

Part of the diagnosis for gender dysphoria is 'living in your your new gender' for 2 years.

As part of that, they want to see documentary evidence of that - name change, passport change, driving license change.

There is also the issues that trans people face if they go to a border crossing and the id says female / male but the person doesn't look like that. Especially after HRT.

I had to get a doctor's letter to get the passport done. I think I had to get the same for the driving license.

So I had 'female ID' before I got my GRC.

I had always assumed that the documentary evidence stuff was things like changing name by deed poll (there are no "male" and "female" names according to UK law), changing library card, changing bank statement type stuff. Not official, government issued ID - obviously I as naive to think that that could only be changed after the formal, government GRC process.

yetanothertranswoman yes that's what i understood from the living as a woman threads but I thought it was with evidence from medics (sounds like it was in your case). I wonder when/if (i dont discount cock up at DVLA!) the requirement changed.

There is also the issues that trans people face if they go to a border crossing and the id says female / male but the person doesn't look like that. Especially after HRT.

I think I've just proved that despite being able to change documents this is still going to be a big problem. My new ID says male but I look like a woman.

I have no wish at all to make light of the gender dysphoria suffered by the transwomen on this thread, and being able to change documents has obviously been personally beneficial to you. At a society level though, I disagree with it. The amount of document altering from a previous life is more akin to entering a witness protection programme. Why don't we put in place the infrastructure to aim for a society that doesn't care if a male has a feminine name and appearance?

And if self-id becomes the norm then a person's sex effectively becomes a choice. People (like me) will use it and there's no way to differentiate using from abusing it.

It's possible there's been a cock-up at the DVLA, but I'm not so sure.
They took the maximum time to issue a new licence, and the paperwork said a new licence would only be issued once DVLA was satisfied with the evidence, with checking procedures in line with gov policy in combating fraud. Maybe someone else should try it to double check!

I think I've just proved that despite being able to change documents this is still going to be a big problem. My new ID says male but I look like a woman

I don't suppose the Government thought that someone would deliberately change their ID from female to male unless they were under going 'gender reassignment'.

I am surprised that the DVLA did this - I really thought it would need a letter from the GP.

The GP letter has to state that they believed the person was committed to gender reassignment for the rest of their life.

And the self-id under medical gatekeeping I'm not really buying either. Our NHS doctors are currently breaking ethical guidelines by prescribing blockers/hormones to children without any evidence based backing.

They have buckled under the trans ideology pressure when they are the one profession who should be speaking out loud and clear about biology and science.

The pervert Dean who was on hunger strike for hair straighteners in prison was reported to have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, when even this layperson recognises the AGP fetish involved in breaking into girl's bedrooms to masturbate in their underwear.

So no, the failure of doctors has breached any trust in this area.

I don't suppose the Government thought that someone would deliberately change their ID from female to male unless they were under going 'gender reassignment'.

And there's the crux of the problem - the Government just did not think.