Susie Green

[dorade]

First thing first, I fully support Posie Parker.

I decided to look at a bit of the backstory including watching Susie Green's TED talk.

Starting from the premise that mothers want the best for their children, I tried to consider how she travelled down the path that she did.

Clearly she didn't have a problem per se with her son playing with 'girl toys' (although the father was sending strong messages to the child that he did).

To my mind, the only way Susie Green can have taken the path that she took is that she must believe that someone can really truly be born in the wrong sex body. If you believe that with religious fervour then the actions that follow, particularly if medical professionals are validating you, don't seem as outrageous.

There then comes a point somewhere down the line when you have gone so far, where you can't allow even a chink of doubt to creep in because the whole house of cards and the horror of irreversible decisions would be too awful to contemplate.

For Jackie, I am sure much of the attention has been unpleasant but equally instead of being a run of the mill gay man he can be feted as a 'brave beauty queen'. His mother gets validated by Buckingham Palace and the Police amongst others.

Sorry, this is all a bit stream-of-consciousness, but what I'm trying to say is that at the root of it we must challenge the narrative that it is possible to be born in the wrong body. It's not.

We also need to retain humanity towards those who, aided and abetted by professionals and under dire warnings of suicide, have made awful decisions.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29832690

The situation in Iran shows clearly how religious people would rather their child trapped in the wrong body than gay.

Hormone therapy seemed to bring positive changes. She grew breasts, and her body hair thinned. "It made me feel good," she says. "I felt beautiful. I felt more attractive to the kinds of partners I used to have." But then she had the operation - and came away feeling "physically damaged". She had a brief marriage to a man but it broke down, and any hope she had that life would be better as a woman was short-lived. "Before the surgery people who saw me would say, 'He's so girly, he's so feminine,'" Marie says.
"After the operation whenever I wanted to feel like a woman, or behave like a woman, everybody would say, 'She looks like a man, she's manly.' It did not help reduce my problems. On the contrary, it increased my problems...
"I think now if I were in a free society, I wonder if I would have been like I am now and if I would have changed my gender," she says. "I am not sure."

The situation in Iran shows clearly how religious people would rather their child trapped in the wrong body than gay.

Or could that be some individuals and cultures?

@SuitedandBooted, it's worse than that in Iran. Gay men and women are prosecuted for engaging in homosexual acts. Punishments include imprisonment, lashes and (for repeated offences) execution. However, there is a recognised procedure for changing gender and the state subsidises the costs of SRS, so some gay people have taken that option as a way of enabling them to live with less fear of persecution.

Interested to read the discussion on religious families.

I've been Christian for over 20 years but am now in the interesting position of wondering if I even believe in God anymore. (The attitude towards gay people in the church is just one of the many issues I have).

But I feel I can speak with an insider's view, having spent a lot of my life in Christian circles - different denominations and different parts of the country.

In my view, VERY few Christians in our country would accept transitioning as an alternative to being gay. Both would be considered equally undesirable. Some of those at the extreme end of the Christian spectrum, like Islam in Iran, might see this as a good option, but they are few and far between.

ChristianPOV - I hear ya!

Or a way for them to remain living with their partner. Gasp Which throws up all sorts of problems within the relationship.

If any one watched that tv series following trans people

With regards to the breasts I remember one going in for an enlargement, and it was very brave and interesting for them to allow us to see on tv. In a bra and under clothes they just looked like regular breasts but the nipples were very much like men's nipples still. It's obviously easier to adapt a women's nipple to look like a man's chest than the other way around.

Obviously im sure the right person wouldn't care and I certainly hope that everyone finds a special person to have in their lives they and are happy and that they are truly happy with their bodies after.

But I do wonder if that in itself is hard that they still don't quite look like they are women's breasts and again makes me wonder if they are being lied to

I've been Christian for over 20 years but am now in the interesting position of wondering if I even believe in God anymore. (The attitude towards gay people in the church is just one of the many issues I have).

I have had this discussion with a family member, they gave up on God because of the behaviour of people. They didn't pick up the bible and read it themselves. They are rethinking their atheist stance now and are currently agnostic. I don't attend a church, I study and reflect on the teachings of Jesus myself.

I read Jesus as someone who would have welcomed and loved the adults and children that some view as transgender, including gay, Autistic, gender non conforming, abuse survivors and gender dysphoric. Anyone who doesn't follow that example is an imperfect human being, like the rest of us, we all make bad choices in life. Jesus would forgive those bad decisions if inside people were truly sorry, as God can see inside us and loves us as we are.

Jesus wanted people to love themselves and others. God is the TRUTH. That's my belief anyway.

Or Lupron

I think with just oestrogen, you only get to a certain stage in breast development. The maturing stage usually comes with periods. I read somewhere about giving cyclical progesterone, but with inconclusive results.

I watched the start of Susie Green's talk. She begins with an incident involving her four year old son telling her something, and of her (S Green's) response:
'"Mummy, god's made a mistake and I should have been a girl" .... and I was terrified!'

This suggests to me nothing more than the sheer foolishness and ignorance of this person Susie Green. A four year old? A four year old? She was terrified of what a four year old child said about what he wanted to be? For heaven's sake, woman, get a grip.

One of my grandsons told me the other evening, as he sat in the bath and after splashing his big sister, 'I really want to be a girl.' He's a four year old boy. Was I afraid, terrified even, to hear this, said as it was in all seriousness, face to face, eye to eye? What rubbish. This same four year old boy was a kangaroo a short while ago ... actually a mummy kangaroo is what he really wanted to be. 'Terrified'? Huh? What?

OK, new young parents can't be expected to know everything about what to expect from their children. But there's something to be said for common sense. We can surely expect some gesture in that direction. However, this Susie Green person is clearly as daft as a brush. We need structures in place to guard against the depredations such foolish and ignorant people can inflict on their children - safeguarding, legal standards in place ... yes, and common sense interventions to let them know when they're being ignorant and foolish. Instead, it seems, some people - including, sad to tell, some who should know better - want to canonise such foolishness and ignorance.

As for dressing up: dressing up? You deduce aspects of a child's mature personality from their dressing up proclivities? ...

'Terrified' indeed. A four year old child. The mind boggles.

I've just watched the TED talk myself. My heart goes out to Jackie that she suffered so much as a result of gender dysphoria and bullying.

But not a single shred of evidence was offered that her problems stemmed from the fact that she was in the wrong body.

What also really struck me was the photos and the video of Jackie. In every single one since her transition she is either posing provocatively and/or is dressed to the nines with full make-up and long flowing locks.

She mentions her excitement that she may be 'attractive'. She likes a particular photo because it makes her look 'hot'. It appears that Jackie associates being a girl with looking pretty, feminine and sexy. It makes me very sad.

Umm. I appreciate the kindness on this thread. I'm aware, though, that very many women navigate complex and difficult family situations without feeling that it's appropriate to resolve them by having their underage child castrated and then going on a nationwide crusade to persuade other people's children that castration is the answer to their problems.

from the TedTalk, "At six years old she kept asking me 'when can I have the operation to make me a girl?' and it was really hard for me as a parent to watch the devastation when I told her she'd have to wait until she was a grown-up"

from the TedTalk, "At six years old she kept asking me 'when can I have the operation to make me a girl?' and it was really hard for me as a parent to watch the devastation when I told her she'd have to wait until she was a grown-up"

I honestly think this is all her own fever dream. None of it ever happened how she said it happened. It's all embroidery.

My youngest used to rush about declaring he was one of the female gladiators in that bloody awful TV show. But I'm not filming TED talks about it.

but if it did LangCleg, a 6 year old child 'knew' that there was indeed an operation that would 'make her into a girl' .... and her Mum has told her she has to wait until she is grown up.
There's so much in that statement to be concerned about.

• it also rather contradicts the emphatic statements that all that is available to children are 'safe and reversible' hormone blockers.

twitter.com/confirmedturf/status/973988230830817280

Short of money for something...............

Pmsl at

Person 1 - Money for what?
Person 2 - legal fees, lollipops, castrations, who knows?

but if it did LangCleg, a 6 year old child 'knew' that there was indeed an operation that would 'make her into a girl' .... and her Mum has told her she has to wait until she is grown up

Exactly! What is that, if not grooming?

& what of the emotional implications for a child waiting 10 years for this operation which will 'make her into a girl'?

Short of money for something...

I've seen more than one tweet about this and I'm wondering too. My understanding is that they are very well funded, so I'm not sure where all that money has gone?

It does seem an odd tweet - they get money from the govt. CIN and must get money for 'education outreach' projects to the police etc, and then there are the commercial tie-ups etc...........

Its probably a good time to promote how to donate. There will be a big upswell of support for Mermaids currently in many quarters....

This vlog by a young trans women is interesting.
She disagrees with Posie on many fronts but acknowledges the factual accuracy of the comments regarding castration and Posie's right to free speech.
It is good to see a young person making points like this. I think it is worth a watch.

Sorry - forgot to provide the link!