What makes someone a RadFem?

[stumblymonkeyagain]

I've been a feminist for a long time (probably since I could talk!) but I've never really looked into the different types of feminism. I don't feel the need to label it, but others do and that's fine.

Can someone help me understand the labels though?

What makes someone a radical feminist as opposed to just a feminist?

Why do some feminists say they aren't 'fourth wave' feminists...what is it about fourth wave that they are likely to be disagreeing with?

Thanks!

People cant agree what 4th wave feminism is. One group says its feminism with added spirituality, and another says its feminists who use technology such as the internet.

There are basically 2 types of feminism;

Liberal feminism - seeks equality for women by asking for changes in the law.
Radical feminism - Radical means 'root'. Radical feminists seek to change society to remove the obstacles to women.

The difference in thinking is shown neatly by thisillustration;
Panel 1 shows the patriarchal system, which has inequalities designed in.
Panel 2 shows the liberal answer.
Panel 3 shows the answer designed from a radical perspective. Change the system and you give people equality in a more natural way.

The first wave feminists were the original suffragettes.

Second wave feminists ''drew attention to domestic violence and marital rape issues, establishment of rape crisis and battered women's shelters, and changes in custody and divorce law.''
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second-wave_feminism

Rebecca Walker coined the term "Third Wave" to highlight the focus on gay and Black women.
Kimberlé Crenshaw described intersectionality.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimberl%C3%A9_Williams_Crenshaw

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-wave_feminism
Third wave feminists are not automatically anti pornography, and see it as empowering women. Radical feminists prefer the Nordic model which keep prostitution illegal.
nordicmodelnow.org/what-is-the-nordic-model/

Fourth wave feminism is so inclusive and liberal it has no clear direction and doesnt know what it is for.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth-wave_feminism

Radfems centre women in their activism.
So for example, you would make an active choice not to harm another women if you have the opportunity to do so. Out culture turns us against each other in so many ways, to the point of causing actual harm. We cant change society if we carry on acting the same way we have always been expected to.
We have to think long term when we act. Not for selfish immediate gain but of long term consequences.

From experience rad fems centre women.

They recognise the system is corrupt and needs to change from the ground up. They see women's oppression and seek liberation. They are anti sex work and pro women.

Lib fems seem to be the same as male allies / lefty men. pro sex work, seek to include, even centre men, into feminism. More about choice, anything a woman does is a feminist choice 'cos she has chosen to do it. A rad fem would do something, shave her legs etc, and see that there are many reasons why she does this. To conform to a standard of beauty set by males etc.

What dame said

I consider myself a feminist but i used the term very broadly

Until i read this board i didnt know whether i was liberal or radical

Turns out i agree with more of the rad stuff

I don't really see liberal feminism as feminism, it's like if an organisation was called the RSPB but supported putting wild birds in cages and spent all their time campaigning for pandas.

Great analogy, Damn.

DJ, your link to the illustration is missing.

Sorry heres the illustration;
Its been a bit hectic this morning

Oops...I started a thread and then forgot about it

Thanks all....

Can one be a RadFem and do things that largely come from patriarchal society like wear make up, shave legs?

Not everything a feminist does is going to be feminist.

However, I found the more I read, the less willing I was to do things like shave and wear makeup, and now rarely shave, and only wear makeup for special occasions/important work meetings.

You can be any sort of feminist and do anything. But some of those things won't be feminist things.

For me a lot of it is about thinking about and understanding why we do things. Why things that we think of as free choices aren't really, they are the product of our social conditioning.

Good old fashioned consciousness raising.

RadFem = thinking things through to their logical end, no matter how counterintuitive the result might be.

It does not mean 'more radical'; it means 'more incisive' and 'less compromising'.

I am clearly more RadFem than anything else, although more in thought and intent than in practice.

Although my legs are hairy - due to laziness, rather than to make a feminist statement

I think there is a bit more to it than that. The problem with leg shaving and lipstick and so on is that we are conforming to a societal norm that says women are not acceptable in an unmodified state, and their bodies need to be controlled and changed. Obviously it's a complete counsel of perfection to not conform at all, which is why I think we need to be aware of why we are doing things, even if we then decide to do them anyway. Knowledge is power!

*Until i read this board i didnt know whether i was liberal or radical

Turns out i agree with more of the rad stuff*

This. And yes you can shave or wear makeup and still be a RadFem, it's the knowing and understanding why women as a class make those choices that makes the difference. Rather than turning a blind eye to it and shouting about 'making a personal choice' which is what I feel liberal feminism does.

I'd never really defined it, but would probably have said I was a liberal feminist, who agreed with the radfem view on some issues. But I think that was more my misunderstanding, and perhaps some exposure to rad fem thinking that I now realise isn't the general view, because like pps I've discovered the radfem thinking matches mine.

I'm a bit 'meh' about some modern dimensions of rad fem. In the group I loosely associate with they prioritise porn and prostitution at the expense of other issues (abortion, reproductive rights, domestic labour) and they have active connections with some pretty conservative Christians - even whack jobs who are against all sex ed. No one mentions the harms caused by religious ideologies or criticises patriarchal marriage and family structures.

That's interesting- I have a group I loosely associate with too, and I haven't noticed that sort of thing. What are they linking with the Right about?

Sorry- not Right. Conservative Christians!

There are links around activism re porn and prostitution mainly.

Obviously it's a complete counsel of perfection to not conform at all, which is why I think we need to be aware of why we are doing things, even if we then decide to do them anyway. Knowledge is power!

Not sure I see the point of this. If you (
general you) believe leg shaving and lipstick and so on is that we are conforming to a societal norm that says women are not acceptable in an unmodified state - why do it at all?

Too often this just comes across as patronising. I'm a RadFem I might wear lipstick but-I can see through all the societal conditioning and I'm wearing lipstick in an ironic RadFem way

And yes you can shave or wear makeup and still be a RadFem, it's the knowing and understanding why women as a class make those choices that makes the difference. Rather than turning a blind eye to it and shouting about 'making a personal choice' which is what I feel liberal feminism does

Again to what difference? Do you think anyone cares or notices that you have worked all of this out yet are doing these things anyway?

I would always have said I was a feminist, prob the 70s/80s type without knowing theory. It seems I am a rad fem because of my views on trans and sex work but I don't really buy into the marxist element of it, mainly because I can't be arsed with marxism.

I don't give a fuck whether anyone wears or does not wear makeup, in the same way that I would certainly give lots of fucks if I was told I had to wear or had not to wear makeup. Or judged either way, fuck that.

The feminist board has been an education though. Thanks to all you interesting and clever women, whatever you call yourselves

Doing a few things to go along with social conformity is something we all have to do, otherwise some days I'd get on the bus in my pyjamas.

But if you are going out and performing femininity everyday to the extent of putting on dresses, makeup and having long hair, while internally not in any way enjoying and seeing intrinsic benefits to that, that is a very unhealthy psychological space to be in.

Obviously there is a critique of femininity to be made, and people who deny such a critique exists are irritating. But on the other hand, if someone denies the huge positive elements of femininity to many women, and sees the whole things as internalised misogyny, that's a psychological projection.

Tbh, I don't really understand why we have to label ourselves as anything at all??

Feminism is a broad church IMO and femininity or what is traditionally understood by it have nothing to do with whether a woman is a feminist or not.

IQ